Has VT-16 been truncated to US-5?

[yakra]

Mapping software was not clear as to whether VT16, heading north from
Glover Rd in Barton:
Crossed US-5 from Water St and proceeded north on Eastern Ave, or...
Followed Church St to US-5, turned southeast for a short (about 3/10
mi) wrong-way duplex, to then turn left onto Eastern Ave.

Looking into the matter, here's what I found:

November 2, 2002: By whatever means it gets there, VT-16's END is
signed at VT-5A in Westmore. http://www.state-ends.com/vermont/0160/

February 10, 2004: The Barton Village highway map is available at
http://www.aot.state.vt.us/Planning/mapgis/town_maps1.htm
Here, we see VT-16 to the west of US-5 carried on TH-2. TH-2 takes a
quick right onto Village Sq - I take this as implying preparing to turn
back SE along US-5.

Now, on to the route logs, from
http://www.aot.state.vt.us/Planning/Documents/TrafResearch/Publications/2004RouteLogAADTs.pdf
The date at the beginning of the document is July `05, but a "run date"
listed at the beginning of the log of (afaik) each highway is
26-Sep-05. (Hm. Whatzat mean?)
The last segment of VT-16 listed, not just for Barton, but altogether,
is from Elm St to Main St. The log has the segment clocking in at 0.20
mi, which most closely corresponds to the 0.194 mi attained by
following Church St to Main, without cutting across Village Sq.

So, judging by the route log, the northern terminus of VT-16 is at US-5
in Barton at the corner of Church & Main. Anyone in the area have the
scoop on signage & such?

[yakra]

The mystery deepens. Checking out the same route log, the listing for
VT-5A in Westmore lists Barton Rd, aka VT-16, as a reference point.
(Never mind that online maps seem convinced it's "N Beach Rd")

There's something screwy going on here. Is VTrans forgetting about 7
miles of their highway? Or using ghost routes as reference points in
their logs?
Now that the log's casting doubt on itself, what route does VT-16 take
in Barton village anyway?

Man oh man. Maybe it's time to bip out to the field and look at some
LG&WSes.

[Michael Moroney]

Post by yakra
The mystery deepens. Checking out the same route log, the listing for
VT-5A in Westmore lists Barton Rd, aka VT-16, as a reference point.
(Never mind that online maps seem convinced it's "N Beach Rd")
There's something screwy going on here. Is VTrans forgetting about 7
miles of their highway? Or using ghost routes as reference points in
their logs?
Now that the log's casting doubt on itself, what route does VT-16 take
in Barton village anyway?

No mystery. VT 16 between US 5 and VT 5A is town-maintained.
Town-maintained state numbered routes aren't documented in that state
route log file you looked at. When I first made my route log (at
http://www.roadgeek.org/vtroads/ ) I noticed several entire routes
missing. I had to troll through the major collectors file looking for
state-numbered routes to complete it. That was quite a bit of work.
Even then, VT 119 was missing, as it is entirely a city street and not
in the major collectors list.

VT 16 is Major Collector 0265 and follows Eastern Ave, Lake Rd and Barton
Ave. where it is town-maintained.

Post by yakra
Man oh man. Maybe it's time to bip out to the field and look at some
LG&WSes.

You should see 0265 on the top line if they exist at all. The route signs
should be the New Jersey style circles, not the green&white ones that
say VERMONT across the top.

[yakra]

Aa, sou sou. Times like these I wish there as a one-stop shop for
definitive info on highways routes.
I'd wondered about the NJ style signage - I thought it was just an
older standard VT used, but had seen some new-looking photos of the
signs, and was accordingly confused.

One tiny thing about VT16 in Barton that continues to confound me
(other than that silly N-shaped route) is that the mileage in the route
logs indicates it stays on Church St until Main, while the town highway
map shows it cutting across Village Sq.

yak

[SPUI]

Post by yakra
Aa, sou sou. Times like these I wish there as a one-stop shop for
definitive info on highways routes.

You can help Wikipedia become that :P

[Banjomax]

Post by yakra
I'd wondered about the NJ style signage - I thought it was just an
older standard VT used, but had seen some new-looking photos of the
signs, and was accordingly confused.

The NJ style circle was the VT standard prior to the introduction of the
green & white shields now used. Before that they used the thick
bordered squares, of which quite a few still remain scattered about, but
those these seem to be becoming a bit rarer of late. I'm willing to bet
that some towns still have some of the older style circles in inventory
for placement along town maintained highways when the need arises (the
new style state name shields have only been around for a dozen or so
years, a short amount of time in the world of Vermont signage). VTrans
policy seems to be to replace shields only when doing major work along a
particular route (repaving, etc.)...otherwise they seem content to leave
well enough alone.

[Michael Moroney]

Post by Banjomax

Post by yakra
I'd wondered about the NJ style signage - I thought it was just an
older standard VT used, but had seen some new-looking photos of the
signs, and was accordingly confused.

The NJ style circle was the VT standard prior to the introduction of the
green & white shields now used. Before that they used the thick
bordered squares, of which quite a few still remain scattered about, but
those these seem to be becoming a bit rarer of late. I'm willing to bet
that some towns still have some of the older style circles in inventory
for placement along town maintained highways when the need arises (the
new style state name shields have only been around for a dozen or so
years, a short amount of time in the world of Vermont signage). VTrans
policy seems to be to replace shields only when doing major work along a
particular route (repaving, etc.)...otherwise they seem content to leave
well enough alone.

According to some info on Vtrans' web site, the New Jersey style shield is
the current authorized style for town-maintained state numbered routes.
The newer green & white state name shields are for state-maintained
highways only. It's almost as if Vermont has a secondary highway system.

[Steve]

Post by Michael Moroney

Post by Banjomax

Post by yakra
I'd wondered about the NJ style signage - I thought it was just an
older standard VT used, but had seen some new-looking photos of the
signs, and was accordingly confused.

The NJ style circle was the VT standard prior to the introduction of the
green & white shields now used. Before that they used the thick
bordered squares, of which quite a few still remain scattered about, but
those these seem to be becoming a bit rarer of late. I'm willing to bet
that some towns still have some of the older style circles in inventory
for placement along town maintained highways when the need arises (the
new style state name shields have only been around for a dozen or so
years, a short amount of time in the world of Vermont signage). VTrans
policy seems to be to replace shields only when doing major work along a
particular route (repaving, etc.)...otherwise they seem content to leave
well enough alone.

According to some info on Vtrans' web site, the New Jersey style shield is
the current authorized style for town-maintained state numbered routes.
The newer green & white state name shields are for state-maintained
highways only. It's almost as if Vermont has a secondary highway system.

Are the squares really the oldest state route shields, or are they a
remnant of a time when circles were state-maintained and squares were
town-maintained? I know squares are the oldest design, but don't know
if the latter system ever existed.

[Michael Moroney]

Post by Steve
Are the squares really the oldest state route shields, or are they a
remnant of a time when circles were state-maintained and squares were
town-maintained? I know squares are the oldest design, but don't know
if the latter system ever existed.

I believe they're just the oldest shield, and were used everywhere. I
have a map from the 60s or 70s that shows an example route shield, a
rectangle.

Just about all surviving rectangles are on town-maintained routes,
but this is probably because VTrans has made an effort to update the
shields on all state-maintained routes.

[SPUI]

Post by Michael Moroney
According to some info on Vtrans' web site, the New Jersey style shield is
the current authorized style for town-maintained state numbered routes.
The newer green & white state name shields are for state-maintained
highways only. It's almost as if Vermont has a secondary highway system.

http://www.aot.state.vt.us/caddhelp/DownLoad/Standards/English/PDF/STDE136C.PDF
"state numbered town highway sign details"

[Douglas Kerr]

Post by Banjomax

Post by yakra
I'd wondered about the NJ style signage - I thought it was just an
older standard VT used, but had seen some new-looking photos of the
signs, and was accordingly confused.

The NJ style circle was the VT standard prior to the introduction of the
green & white shields now used. Before that they used the thick
bordered squares, of which quite a few still remain scattered about, but
those these seem to be becoming a bit rarer of late. I'm willing to bet
that some towns still have some of the older style circles in inventory
for placement along town maintained highways when the need arises (the
new style state name shields have only been around for a dozen or so
years, a short amount of time in the world of Vermont signage). VTrans
policy seems to be to replace shields only when doing major work along a
particular route (repaving, etc.)...otherwise they seem content to leave
well enough alone.

Or even more rare are the tiny Vermont shields that can be found
affixed to the backs of other signs. As previously echoed, the town
maintained routes are generally where these gems are found, but I think
the square and circle shields are more common that even I would have
suspected.

Post by Banjomax
--
Banjo
Dummerston, VT

[Banjomax]

Post by yakra
Now, on to the route logs, from
http://www.aot.state.vt.us/Planning/Documents/TrafResearch/Publications/2004RouteLogAADTs.pdf
The date at the beginning of the document is July `05, but a "run date"
listed at the beginning of the log of (afaik) each highway is
26-Sep-05. (Hm. Whatzat mean?)
The last segment of VT-16 listed, not just for Barton, but altogether,
is from Elm St to Main St. The log has the segment clocking in at 0.20
mi, which most closely corresponds to the 0.194 mi attained by
following Church St to Main, without cutting across Village Sq.
So, judging by the route log, the northern terminus of VT-16 is at US-5
in Barton at the corner of Church & Main. Anyone in the area have the
scoop on signage & such?

Odd. I don't have the answer to this, but I do know that the route log
you mentioned does not include every signed route in the field. In the
far southern part of the state for instance, VT-8A and VT-119 are
omitted entirely, though both are certainly signed along their
respective lengths in Vermont. Perhaps the section of VT-16 in question
(from Barton to the northern end of Lake Willoughby on VT-5A...a
beautiful spot BTW) has been turned over to local control/maintenance by
the state while the previous signage remains. Just a guess, though if
anyone knows for sure, I'd certainly be interested.

[Andrew Tompkins]

Post by yakra
Now, on to the route logs, from

http://www.aot.state.vt.us/Planning/Documents/TrafResearch/Publications/2004RouteLogAADTs.pdf

Post by yakra
The date at the beginning of the document is July `05, but a "run
date" listed at the beginning of the log of (afaik) each highway is
26-Sep-05. (Hm. Whatzat mean?)

Chances are the introductory stuff was done in July but the final
column numbers weren't available until September at which time the
reports were 'run' (generated and printed).