I-15 in Southern Nevada and adjacent roads

[Rush Wickes]

I sat in heavy traffic going southbound from Las Vegas until Jean,
Nevada on Sunday night. There wasn't any apparent cause, other than
volume (no construction or accidents). Nevada 511 system and Google
Maps for the iPhone showed traffic congestion as "red" southbound until
the California line, where it turned green again. Is California's ITS
system not as responsive to reporting congestion there or does somethig
change at the border to free up capacity?

Also, looking at Google Maps, I, as well as some other drivers, exited
at Jean and went south along a parallel road marked (on the map) as
Nevada 604. We were flying along just fine until we reached the one
lane underpass which would have taken us from the northbound to
southbound side of I-15. The road literally stopped there and became
impassible beyond the underpass. Was this once a thru route? Is
Nevada keeping it unimproved to keep thru traffic on I-15?

I also took Nevada 161 up from Jean north and west to Spring Valley, NV.
At the border of Clark County, NV and San Bernandino County,
California, the road name changes to Kingston Road and continues into
Calfornia as a rough, unpavrd gravel road. I didn't take it as I was in
a new rental car and didn't want to risk paint damage etc.

This apparently was once a toll road back in the early automotive age.
Yet, why is it left unimproved today? It would seem prudent to have an
alternative route in this corridor should something force the closure of
I-15.

[Steve Sobol]

In article <1655642484291579489.979408rushwickes-
***@news.vt.edu>, ***@hotmail.com says...
and didn't want to risk paint damage etc.

Post by Rush Wickes
This apparently was once a toll road back in the early automotive age.
Yet, why is it left unimproved today? It would seem prudent to have an
alternative route in this corridor should something force the closure of
I-15.

If you're going that way, from Las Vegas, there *is* no other route
besides I-15. You'll have to get back on the freeway at *some* point.

The only reasonable alternative is US-95 out of Las Vegas, to I-40, back
into Barstow, and I've never done that drive because it adds at least an
hour or two to the commute.

Been there, done that, got stuck in snow on December 18th 2008, in the
worst snowstorm Nevada had seen in at least a decade. Of course, US-95
was closed too, so there really *was* no alternative to sitting and
waiting...

[Paul D. DeRocco]

Post by Steve Sobol
If you're going that way, from Las Vegas, there *is* no other route
besides I-15. You'll have to get back on the freeway at *some* point.
The only reasonable alternative is US-95 out of Las Vegas, to I-40, back
into Barstow, and I've never done that drive because it adds at least an
hour or two to the commute.

If you know the traffic jam is only in NV, you can take US-95 to
Searchlight, then take NV164 through Nipton back to I-15. That adds about 45
miles.

If the traffic is too heavy in CA, then there are other roads across the
Mojave Desert. They may take longer, but personally, I'd rather be driving
65 down an empty desert road then 35 in bumper to bumper traffic on the
Interstate.

[Cameron Kaiser]

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
If the traffic is too heavy in CA, then there are other roads across the
Mojave Desert. They may take longer, but personally, I'd rather be driving
65 down an empty desert road then 35 in bumper to bumper traffic on the
Interstate.

Hear, hear. Currently my route to Vegas is I-10 to US 95. Longer? Definitely,
by a large margin. But relaxing, open road through fascinating territory.

--
Cameron Kaiser * ***@floodgap.com * posting with a Commodore 128
Computer Workshops: http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/
Floodgap Systems: http://www.floodgap.com/
personal page: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/

[larry_scholnick]

Post by Cameron Kaiser

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
If the traffic is too heavy in CA, then there are other roads across the
Mojave Desert. They may take longer, but personally, I'd rather be driving
65 down an empty desert road then 35 in bumper to bumper traffic on the
Interstate.

Hear, hear. Currently my route to Vegas is I-10 to US 95. Longer? Definitely,
by a large margin. But relaxing, open road through fascinating territory.
--

A few years ago I had occasion to drive from Ridgecrest, CA to Las
Vegas, NV via Death Valley. It was early December so it wasn't hot at
all (in fact, they were running a Marathon in Death Valley that day)
and the roads were wide open and spectacular, expecially the descent
from several thousand feet down to Sea Level and then below.

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by Rush Wickes
I sat in heavy traffic going southbound from Las Vegas until Jean,
Nevada on Sunday night.  There wasn't any apparent cause, other than
volume (no construction or accidents).  Nevada 511 system and Google
Maps for the iPhone showed traffic congestion as "red" southbound until
the California line, where it turned green again.    Is California's ITS
system not as responsive to reporting congestion there or does somethig
change at the border to free up capacity?

Ordinarily, this is because there are three lanes on the Nevada side,
2 lanes on the California side. Traffic has to narrow to adjust to the
new lane configuration, and with a lot of traffic, it takes a lot of
time.

[Larry Sheldon]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Rush Wickes
I sat in heavy traffic going southbound from Las Vegas until Jean,
Nevada on Sunday night. There wasn't any apparent cause, other than
volume (no construction or accidents). Nevada 511 system and Google
Maps for the iPhone showed traffic congestion as "red" southbound until
the California line, where it turned green again. Is California's ITS
system not as responsive to reporting congestion there or does somethig
change at the border to free up capacity?

Ordinarily, this is because there are three lanes on the Nevada side,
2 lanes on the California side. Traffic has to narrow to adjust to the
new lane configuration, and with a lot of traffic, it takes a lot of
time.

Don't forget the absolutely brilliant move of slowing the trucks down to
55 thereby reducing it to a two-lane (one each way) road.

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by Larry Sheldon
Don't forget the absolutely brilliant move of slowing the trucks down to
55 thereby reducing it to a two-lane (one each way) road.

I agree completely. The only reason that road works at all is because
many trucks push the 55 limit, and others bunch together at seemingly
dangerous following distances.

Having trucks at a different speed limit may work in some more lightly-
laden areas of California, but on this segment, at least during peak
LA-Vegas travel periods, it seems to me that it increases the amount
of danger as people weave in and out of truck traffic. If California
is going to have the split limit, they really ought to build the
segment out to three lanes; this segment handles truck traffic to and
from the ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles to both I-15 and I-70
destinations, plus during the winter months, it picks up eastbound
traffic from the Central Valley that would otherwise divert to I-80
(of course, so does I-40).

Now, having said that, I really appreciate the changes made on the
Mountain Pass and Baker Grade sections, adding truck lanes; it has
made a big difference. I really miss the temporary bypass road they
had on Mountain Pass, though. I also really like the new Valley Wells
rest areas -- much appreciated.

Daryl

[larry_scholnick]

Post by d***@gmail.com
Ordinarily, this is because there are three lanes on the Nevada side,
2 lanes on the California side. Traffic has to narrow to adjust to the
new lane configuration, and with a lot of traffic, it takes a lot of
time.

Indeed the #3 lane drops at Exit #1/Primm, NV. Usually nearly 1/3 of
the traffic gets off there as well, so it looks like all will be
well. But it isn't - most who exit there get food and/or gas and get
back on a few minutes later in the same direction.

In numbers, theoretical capacity is 1800 VPH (Vehicles Per Hour) in
each lane. So, 3600 are trying to go southbound into California (in
the 2 SB lanes) plus 1000 VPH entering from Primm, NV. The result is
that only 2600 VPH can cross the Primm bridge.

Only a few miles later, CA adds a climbing lane for the grade to Mt.
Pass, CA so the trucks are removed from the mix (along with some cars
that use the right lane for passing). Some Sundays there are severe
slowdowns at each of the point where the 3rd lane ends and traffic has
to merge back into 2 SB lanes. Only after the I-40 merge in Barstow
does the 3rd lane get added "permanently".

[Paul D. DeRocco]

Post by larry_scholnick
Only a few miles later, CA adds a climbing lane for the grade to Mt.
Pass, CA so the trucks are removed from the mix (along with some cars
that use the right lane for passing). Some Sundays there are severe
slowdowns at each of the point where the 3rd lane ends and traffic has
to merge back into 2 SB lanes. Only after the I-40 merge in Barstow
does the 3rd lane get added "permanently".

I wonder what it actually costs per lane mile to widen a freeway out in the
desert where the land is flat, clear, and basically free. Is there a rule of
thumb for that?

[Ralph Herman]

Post by Paul D. DeRocco

Post by larry_scholnick
Only a few miles later, CA adds a climbing lane for the grade to Mt.
Pass, CA so the trucks are removed from the mix (along with some cars
that use the right lane for passing). Some Sundays there are severe
slowdowns at each of the point where the 3rd lane ends and traffic has
to merge back into 2 SB lanes. Only after the I-40 merge in Barstow
does the 3rd lane get added "permanently".

I wonder what it actually costs per lane mile to widen a freeway out in the
desert where the land is flat, clear, and basically free. Is there a rule of
thumb for that?

Paul,

I don't disagree that I-15 should get an additional lane from Primm to
Barstow.

But I personally think Caltrans has higher priorities for road projects.
I-15 flows fine a majority of the time. The money should be spent where it
is needed the most. I-5 in southern LA County for one.

I will also add I believe believe the split 70/55 speed limit is the most
dangerous hazard on I-15 across the desert.

Ralph

[Paul D. DeRocco]

Post by Ralph Herman
I don't disagree that I-15 should get an additional lane from Primm to
Barstow.
But I personally think Caltrans has higher priorities for road projects.
I-15 flows fine a majority of the time. The money should be spent where it
is needed the most. I-5 in southern LA County for one.

Yes, but my suspicion is that road projects like widening I-15 in the desert
are probably waaay cheaper than widening something in the Los Angeles area,
primarily because of ROW costs. I'd like to know how much cheaper. Does
widening 110 miles of desert road cost the same as 50 miles of L.A. road, or
ten miles? I really don't know, but I suspect closer to the latter than the
former.

Also, NV is chipping in on I-15.

[Steve Sobol]

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
Yes, but my suspicion is that road projects like widening I-15 in the desert
are probably waaay cheaper than widening something in the Los Angeles area,
primarily because of ROW costs. I'd like to know how much cheaper. Does
widening 110 miles of desert road cost the same as 50 miles of L.A. road, or
ten miles? I really don't know, but I suspect closer to the latter than the
former.
Also, NV is chipping in on I-15.

Wouldn't be the first time that happened. I understand they paid around
$20 million to Caltrans to reimburse them for the big widening project a
few years ago, because California won't see any of the tax revenue
heading to Vegas as a result.

By the way, when you consider ROW, you must also consider that almost
everything east of I-15 between Barstow and Baker is federally protected
land, part of the Mojave National Preserve.

[Marc Fannin]

Post by Rush Wickes
Also, looking at Google Maps, I, as well as some other drivers, exited
at Jean and went south along a parallel road marked (on the map) as
Nevada 604.  We were flying along just fine until we reached the one
lane underpass which would have taken us from the northbound to
southbound side of I-15.  The road literally stopped there and became
impassible beyond the underpass.   Was this once a thru route?

Suprised that one of the posters from that side of the country hasn't
mentioned it: The current and former sections of NV-604 follow old
US-91. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_State_Route_604

_________________________________________________________________________
Marc Fannin|musxf579 @hotmail.com|http://roadfan.com/ (m.t.r FAQ, etc.)

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by Marc Fannin
Suprised that one of the posters from that side of the country hasn't
mentioned it: The current and former sections of NV-604 follow old
US-91.  See  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_State_Route_604

True, you can follow the old highway (the Los Angeles Highway, as
opposed to the Salt Lake Highway on the north side) from Las Vegas to
Jean, and it follows the freeway alignment. The highway was not only
US-91, but also US-466. But after Jean, you're back to the freeway,
unless you want to get creative and drive through the sagebrush.

Daryl

[JG]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Marc Fannin
Suprised that one of the posters from that side of the country hasn't
mentioned it: The current and former sections of NV-604 follow old
US-91.  See  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_State_Route_604

True, you can follow the old highway (the Los Angeles Highway, as
opposed to the Salt Lake Highway on the north side) from Las Vegas to
Jean, and it follows the freeway alignment. The highway was not only
US-91, but also US-466. But after Jean, you're back to the freeway,
unless you want to get creative and drive through the sagebrush.
Daryl

Wouldn't the RR tracks have a gravel service road ??

[Paul D. DeRocco]

Post by JG
Wouldn't the RR tracks have a gravel service road ??

I've driven the one between Primm and Nipton, and it's not the sort of road
I'd like to drive at night as an alternative to the freeway on my way back
to L.A. Fun to explore during the day, though.

[Rush Wickes]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Marc Fannin
Suprised that one of the posters from that side of the country hasn't
mentioned it: The current and former sections of NV-604 follow old
US-91. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_State_Route_604

True, you can follow the old highway (the Los Angeles Highway, as
opposed to the Salt Lake Highway on the north side) from Las Vegas to
Jean, and it follows the freeway alignment. The highway was not only
US-91, but also US-466. But after Jean, you're back to the freeway,
unless you want to get creative and drive through the sagebrush.

Why did they let the old highway fall into decay? It would have made
sense to provide a parallel roadway to the interstate in my opinion.

[Steve Sobol]

In article <1815985402292004044.800986rushwickes-

Post by Rush Wickes

Post by d***@gmail.com
True, you can follow the old highway (the Los Angeles Highway, as
opposed to the Salt Lake Highway on the north side) from Las Vegas to
Jean, and it follows the freeway alignment. The highway was not only
US-91, but also US-466. But after Jean, you're back to the freeway,
unless you want to get creative and drive through the sagebrush.

Why did they let the old highway fall into decay? It would have made
sense to provide a parallel roadway to the interstate in my opinion.

Why does US-66 physically *not exist* parallel to I-40 near Arizona?

The question you need to ask is, if that highway still existed and was
maintained, how many people would use it? No one *lives* out there, it's
the middle of the Mojave Desert (that applies to both the former US-91
and the former US-66 in the areas we're talking about).

[Paul D. DeRocco]

Post by Steve Sobol
Why does US-66 physically *not exist* parallel to I-40 near Arizona?
The question you need to ask is, if that highway still existed and was
maintained, how many people would use it? No one *lives* out there, it's
the middle of the Mojave Desert (that applies to both the former US-91
and the former US-66 in the areas we're talking about).

In some places near Needles, the old road bed still exists but they ripped
up the pavement to keep people off it. In other places, they buried the old
road under the new Interstate.

The only places they keep the old alignment separate is when there are
abutters that still need access. In the desert areas, it's generally pretty
easy to see where they did what, from aerial imagery--especially in Google
Earth, where you can tilt the view and sight down an old road to see what
lines up with what.

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by Steve Sobol
The question you need to ask is, if that highway still existed and was
maintained, how many people would use it? No one *lives* out there, it's
the middle of the Mojave Desert (that applies to both the former US-91
and the former US-66 in the areas we're talking about).

True. In most places I've noticed where the former roadway was left in
place, it's to service small towns that were bypassed, or ranches or
facilities that would demand a exit. Leaving the old roadway (and
usually changing it to a state or county route, is usually a cheaper
option in such cases, I would expect. In Utah and Southern Nevada,
from what I remember as a kid, they would build one leg of the new
freeway, switch two-way traffic over to the new roadway, and rebuild
the old roadbed into the "other" direction. It saved them having to
acquire new right of way.

As an aside, Nevada did some odd things to avoid "ranch exits" or
frontage roads in part of Southern Nevada. Between Mesquite and Las
Vegas, there are several "truck parking" lots that service roads for
communications facilities or desert access. Here is an example of one:
http://bit.ly/c72oaU It allows service of an FAA installation to the
south and access to a gravel "roadway" that stretches to several
microwave towers in the mountains northward. A few miles onward,
they've also got a bizarre dirt road that comes off of the left lane
of NB I-15 (actually heading east at this point) as seen in this map:
http://bit.ly/dAClRh

Daryl

[Marc Fannin]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Steve Sobol
The question you need to ask is, if that highway still existed and was
maintained, how many people would use it? No one *lives* out there, it's
the middle of the Mojave Desert (that applies to both the former US-91
and the former US-66 in the areas we're talking about).

True. In most places I've noticed where the former roadway was left in
place, it's to service small towns that were bypassed, or ranches or
facilities that would demand a exit. Leaving the old roadway (and
usually changing it to a state or county route, is usually a cheaper
option in such cases

Small nitpick: Since U.S. routes are already state-maintained as a
rule, changing a U.S. route to a state route would actually be more
expensive in theory, due to the continued maintenance in addition to
the manufacture of new state route markers and related labor and
paperwork changes.

_________________________________________________________________________
Marc Fannin|musxf579 @hotmail.com|http://roadfan.com/ (m.t.r FAQ, etc.)

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by Marc Fannin

Post by d***@gmail.com
True. In most places I've noticed where the former roadway was left in
place, it's to service small towns that were bypassed, or ranches or
facilities that would demand a exit. Leaving the old roadway (and
usually changing it to a state or county route, is usually a cheaper
option in such cases

Small nitpick: Since U.S. routes are already state-maintained as a
rule, changing a U.S. route to a state route would actually be more
expensive in theory, due to the continued maintenance in addition to
the manufacture of new state route markers and related labor and
paperwork changes.

Sorry. I should have been more specific. I meant it was cheaper than
building a freeway exit and surrounding interchange, service roads,
signage, etc.

Daryl

[Steve Sobol]

In article <80a5fc4c-ae52-45ee-afd5-56d882b34d68
@v20g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ***@gmail.com says...

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Steve Sobol
the middle of the Mojave Desert (that applies to both the former US-

91

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by Steve Sobol
and the former US-66 in the areas we're talking about).

True. In most places I've noticed where the former roadway was left in
place, it's to service small towns that were bypassed, or ranches or
facilities that would demand a exit.

Yup. Once you get down to the bottom of Cajon Pass, the old alignment of
US 66 heads through San Bernardino, west into Pasadena, and on into Los
Angeles and Santa Monica, all heavily populated areas. But nothing like
that exists in *this* area. US66/National Trails Highway between
Victorville and Barstow is a perfect example of this, before it turns
east and becomes Barstow's Main Street.

As you drive west on D Street and turn north, transitioning onto
National Trails Highway, you go through Oro Grande, just outside
Victorville... a very small town with a handful of houses and only one
big business (the TXI/Riverside Cement plant). Drive through about 15
minutes of nothing and you hit Helendale, another small town with almost
nothing there. There are a lot of houses in the Silver Lakes subdivision
of Helendale, but Silver Lakes is several minutes west of National
Trails Highway. Then you travel through about 20-25 minutes of nothing.
There are a few houses in Hodge, but other than that, there's a lot of
emptiness until you hit the outskirts of Barstow.

Post by d***@gmail.com
Leaving the old roadway (and
usually changing it to a state or county route, is usually a cheaper
option in such cases

Marc Fannin already replied to this. It seems to me, too, that
decommissioning the highway is the best bet

Post by d***@gmail.com
microwave towers in the mountains northward. A few miles onward,
they've also got a bizarre dirt road that comes off of the left lane
http://bit.ly/dAClRh

Are you refering to Toquop Wash Road?

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by d***@gmail.com
microwave towers in the mountains northward. A few miles onward,
they've also got a bizarre dirt road that comes off of the left lane
http://bit.ly/dAClRh

Are you referring to Toquop Wash Road?

Yes. It seems quite odd to see a roadway jut off the left breakdown
lane of a freeway. It's not roadway design at its best, although it
is, arguably, practical. The roadway "exit" is partway down the hill
west of Mesquite, and it's easy to miss, until you see a vehicle
trying to enter the freeway from it.

It's interesting to see this sort of thing and contrast it with the
"low cost" exits that Wyoming uses for "ranch exits." They essentially
just build a short road off the freeway, with limited acceleration/
deceleration lanes -- essentially, their low-cost "exits" are a one-
lane culvert under the roadway coupled with a wide spot on the freeway
and an exit sign. Utah, however, builds "ranch exits" complete with
full-blown overpasses and full-length acceleration lanes. Admittedly,
most of these ranch exits are mainly used by sleeping truckers. Nevada
does, however, have their share of little-used dirt-road exits between
Glendale and Las Vegas, (my favorite one is "Ute" -- a University of
Utah team decorated it one year on their way to the tournament in
Vegas) not to mention I-15 exit 100, which goes to the small town of
Carp.

I will be interested in seeing how Caltrans addresses these type of
exits on CA-58 between Kramer Junction and Mojave, if they ever switch
CA-58 to freeway status. Now, of course, they just put up a sign
saying the freeway is ending, and it's a divided highway for the next
few miles. But if they ever *do* extend I-40 to Bakersfield or beyond,
they're going to either have to close some of these crossover roads,
build full-fledged exits, or build a frontage road, unless they want
to act like Wyoming and build second-class exits.

Daryl

[Paul D. DeRocco]

Post by d***@gmail.com
I will be interested in seeing how Caltrans addresses these type of
exits on CA-58 between Kramer Junction and Mojave, if they ever switch
CA-58 to freeway status. Now, of course, they just put up a sign
saying the freeway is ending, and it's a divided highway for the next
few miles. But if they ever *do* extend I-40 to Bakersfield or beyond,
they're going to either have to close some of these crossover roads,
build full-fledged exits, or build a frontage road, unless they want
to act like Wyoming and build second-class exits.

I assume the "second-class exits" in place on existing interstates were
grandfathered in, and couldn't be done in the future on CA-58 if they ever
wanted to turn it into an extension of I-40.

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
I assume the "second-class exits" in place on existing interstates were
grandfathered in, and couldn't be done in the future on CA-58 if they ever
wanted to turn it into an extension of I-40.

Maybe. I have been looking for an example on I-25 of the "baby" exits,
and can't find one right off the bat. They were essentially a very
shortened exit lane and entrance lane; I wouldn't think it would work
in CA-58, where the traffic volume is so high, but out in the sticks
on I-25, where the traffic is extremely light, I imagine it works.

Daryl

[p***@gmail.com]

I know exactly where you’re talking about. A year ago coming home from Vegas I didn’t want to sit in stopped traffic for an hour so I took that 161 hwy to spring valley where it becomes Kingston rd. I did go through that unpaved gravel road and let me tell you... it was hell! It was the longest 12 miles of my life and was never happier to be back on an actual road! It eventually took me back to Cima rd on the 15 freeway in California. You did right by not taking that road through because I strongly advise against that. I was amazed that I didn’t get a flat tire and very little damage to what was a rental car. It just got really dirty! Anyway that was my experience going through that backway

[John Levine]

I know exactly where you=E2=80=99re talking about.

I don't, but that may be becuase it's a response to a message posted
in April 2010, more than nine years ago.