No changes yet to Echelon Mall...

[chris]

The 1.1 million square foot PREIT property, hasnt undergone any
changes since the March 2003 acquiring of the major mall, despite the
newspapers and PREIT word which indicated that soon upgrades will
happen.

Nobody has taken serious interest in filling either the vacant
JCPenney or Sears anchors. As for retailers, The May Company could
open another Southern NJ Lord&Taylor store. I dont know if Burlington
Coat Factory, Kohls, Costco or Walmart were contacted but if they
were, they werent interested or found the area not adaptable. If they
werent contacted, then the Rouse (and now PREIT) isnt doing everything
to get new anchors.

Nordstrom, Bloomingdales, and Macy's will only consider flourishing
shopping centers with decent traffic. Taking a walk in the mall, I
noticed few more mom & pop stores replacing the national stores that
were once there. For Christmas season during the evening hours, mall
activity seemed more like what it should be such as an off season 11am
monday visit. Occupancies seem to be an issue with the vast mall 3/4
full. The San Francisco Music Box Company has been replaced by a
mom/pop gift shop with no changes to the storefront except the name.
Some other stores like Lechters were replaced with a local store,
other stores that had closed still had its name listed (such as Allied
Hobbies), others like Gantos (which has/had a exquisite storefront
still have the storefront, but the store remains closed without the
name, and others are altogether boarded with a wall, that have an
advertisement with Clear Channel's logo on the corner. Clear Channel
is making money off the serious vacancy issue, and of stores going out
of business?

I wonder if there is a directory kept, of all the stores that have
passed through the Echelon Mall since its opening in 1970. It would
be really vast list of stores and probably most that are totally out
of business across the country. Anyone remember The Canadiens?

Unfortunately with the occupancies, remaining businesses are still
scattered throughout the mall. The idea to strengthen the mall at
sections (such as between Boscov's and Strawbridge's) hasnt really
picked up. Some of the stores (closer to Penney's) like Motherhood
Maternity do have new storefronts and probably arent willing to invest
moving to the other side of the mall because it would be costly and
little in benefit long term. Others like Deck the Walls, which lack a
nice front anyways, could move elsewhere without much trouble, but
havent.

PREIT has mentioned likely changes. They originally pinned on putting
offices in the mall where JCPenney and Sears were anchored. I have
trouble understanding that because most businesses would seem to
prefer having offices with windows (and JCPenney and Sears lacked
that), and be off a good location. The Echelon Mall isnt conveniently
off major roads, though has ample parking. More parking that it can
ever fill. Offices dont have employees working on weekends usually,
and thus cars parked during weekends. Thus, offices would still be a
gaping hole to the image of the mall.

Over at the Hamilton Mall by the Jersey Shore, their newer mall is
proceeding in new flooring while the older Voorhees Echelon Mall is
tied in bureaucratic impediments.

PREIT has said they will wait until they get the 2 anchors (of
JCPenney and Sears) re-occupied now before any changes. Suppose, they
dont, does this mean the rest of the mall has to hemorrage more stores
and customers?

Despite this, some advertising for Echelon Mall is being done now
currently via Comcast. In my opinion, the mall off county roads
really should be scaled down. With the addition of Sears, it was
overmalled and oversaturated to a point, but the existing parts never
got the needed facelift and boost they needed. What a disaster. Then
it lost Sears, which hurt JCPenney, which put in the poorest position
of the mall (relative to Boscovs and Strawbridges), now was adjacent
to the Sears carcass. Penney closed. The Penneys and Sears anchors
site(s) are at the back of the mall, and are poorly situated.

Thus, suppose the best solution would be to tear down the Penney's and
Sears sites, and strengthen the remaining of the mall. And later
redevelop. It was mentioned Sears and JCPenney owned those sites.
Assuming such, would they be uncooperative that they wouldnt want it
torn down but insist the structure of those sites remain intact and
simply find a new owner?

For a new anchor, if Walmart or any store wanted to open at Echelon,
the optimal side is not where Sears or JCPenney are, but between
Boscov's and Strawbridge's off Somerdale road. This would equate to
the second level of the mall and only an entrance to the mall via the
second level. This location is in the middle of the mall (which is
good in mall location) and visible from the largest road that runs
through the mall.

Even if Walmart, a movie theater, or some group looking to put up
offices wants that space, the existing JCPenney or Sears would
probably need to be torn down and new accomodating structure would be
into place. Its the American way. For example, Walgreens which
wanted a site in Cherry Hill paid the owners of a diner to close and
move elsewhere. Rather than Walgreens converting the diner into a
pharmacy by exterior changes, they tore the entire diner down, and are
building the Walgreens from scratch to model other Walgreens across
the country.

It would be dissapointing to see the Sears anchor (which is less than
5 years old) be torned down. Since the shape of the structure is in
good condition, it is very unlikely that it would be torned down (and
redeveloped)?

[Regina Litman]

I've cut the whole message because I try not to keep the entire message
in a reply when I'm only responding to parts of it, but I really
couldn't discern what parts to keep and what not to keep. I figured the
lesser of two evils was to not keep the original message at all, instead
of taking up a lot of space with it.

Thanks for keeping us up to date with this mall. I have only been there
once, on Tuesday, October 28, 1986, just before I moved to the
Philadelphia area. I was apartment shopping on both sides of the river
and ended up at this mall at lunch time. I ate at a York Steak House,
which I had seen at various malls during my travels, but we didn't have
them in the malls in the Maryland suburbs of Washington, DC, which is
where I was moving from. I believe this was my only visit to a York
Steak House. The one at Neshaminy Mall, which is much closer to where I
ended up living, closed not long after I moved into the area, and I
think the whole chain has disappeared, since I haven't seen one in years.

In the Washington area, instead of York Steak House, we had Hot Shoppes
Cafeterias in nearly every mall. They are all gone now, too. I think
that the proliferation of food courts have done in the cafeterias and
other informal sitdown restaurant chains like York that tended to be in
mall locations. (A few malls, such as Oxford Valley, have Friendly Ice
Cream, but most Friendly's are outside of malls. And a few upscale
chains such as Ruby Tuesdays, found in Willow Grove Park, Christiana
Mall in Delaware, and a mall I went to in Connecticut a few years ago,
are in malls but are there to attract a different customer base than the
food courts.)

So, put York Steak House on your list of businesses that have passed
through Echelon Mall during its history. In the unlikely event that it's
still there, I'd certainly like to know because I don't find too many of
these informal steak chains in the Philadelphia area these days. (By
"steak", I do not mean the thin slivers of meat served in a sandwich
with cheese and sometimes onions. Those are called "cheese steaks", but
a lot of the food establishments that specialize in them use just the
word "steaks" in their names.)

In the Washington, DC, area, a mall called Landover Mall opened right
next to the Beltway northeast of the city in 1972. I remember the ads on
the radio, "Landover Mall, you'll love it all." Or something close to
that. It was a bit far from where I lived, so I probably only went there
two or three times over the years. The area where it was located went
downscale over the years. In my visits to the DC area, I don't usually
travel on the section of the Beltway that goes past this mall, but I did
on November 16 of this year. I noticed when I passed Landover Mall that
the Sears store had put up a big sign proclaiming that it was open. I
wasn't driving, so I craned my neck for a better look. It appeared that
the rest of the mall was closed down. I asked one of my relatives down
there about this, and she said that, yes, the whole mall had closed
except for Sears.

It was 11 years ago this week that I first saw a large "dead" mall - it
was in Nashville. I was aware then that the Bucks County Mall/T.J. Maxx
Marketplace on Street Road in Feasterville didn't look like it was much
longer for this world, and in fact a few years later, most of this
structure was torn down to make way for a huge new Acme. I've since seen
or heard about other "dead" malls. Hunt Valley north of Baltimore looked
like it was pretty much dead when I visited it on June 12, 1999. The
reason I ended up there was that I had joy ridden the light rail system
to its northern terminus, which was in the mall's parking lot. Even with
this transit line come right onto its turf, the mall wasn't doing very well.

I forgot that there was another dead mall in the DC area about 25 years
ago. A mall originally called Rockville Mall and later renamed The
Commons at Courthouse Square in a last-ditch attempt to save it opened
in the middle of Rockville, MD, a suburban county seat, in 1971 or 1972.
Because I lived close to it, I spent a lot of time there during its
rather short life time. I know it lasted less than 10 years. Some things
it had going against it:

1. Parking was limited and was not free (I think the first couple of
hours were free, then the charges kicked in), and while this is true of
the Gallery and other in-town malls, this mall was in a suburban
location where there were lots of nearby shopping centers and malls with
acres of free parking. Also, the only parking available was in a garage,
which gave some people the creeps. These days, some malls such as Willow
Grove Park and Bethesda, MD's Montgomery Mall (oops, I mean Westtown
Shopping Town - Bethesda), have built parking garages, but they do not
constitute the only available parking in these malls, and they are built
with a more open design than the one in Rockville had.

2. The only anchor store was Lansburgh's, a Washington area department
store chain that had lagged behind competitors Hecht's and Woodward and
Lothrop ("Woodies'") in branching out to newly built malls. Lansburgh's
was probably on its way downhill by the time it opened the Rockville
store, and it was gone within a couple of years. The store's parent
company no doubt still had some time left on its lease, so it opened a
branch of a store it ran in another market not too far to the north, Lit
Brothers. You folks in Philadelphia may have heard of it. The one in
Rockville was only there a short time; its closing may have coincided
with that of the rest of the chain. There may have been space for a
second anchor, but I don't recall one ever opening there.

3. When the mall opened, there were many vacant storefronts in addition
to that of a possible second anchor. There was not enough of a mix to
attract a large customer base.

[I am NOT Gene Wood!]

<big ol' snip>

Wow, very interesting information all around. Here's what little I
have to give.

I've only been to two dead malls in my life, and neither were really
big enough to have made waves. Check Google for my commentary on
Hampton Towne Centre.

Here's the other dead mall I know of, Fort Saginaw Mall. It opened in
the 1960s. I don't know what the anchors were when it opened -- I
would appreciate if someone helped me out there. It was a smaller
mall, maybe 40 stores at the most. In 1972, Saginaw's other mall,
Fashion Square Mall, opened in what I consider the best part of
Saginaw -- where all the businesses are. Fort Saginaw still stood at
M-46 and Outer Drive. Fort Saginaw to me has always seemed to be in
kind of a crummy, high-crime, gang-dominated area. As early as 1990,
there were still some stores clinging for dear life at Fort Saginaw --
Kmart, Burlington Coat Factory, El-Bee Shoes, Fashion Bug, Graystones,
GNC, Norman's, Nadine's Jewlers, and Albert's. At one time, Prime
Time, Yoko Health Spa, Baskin Robbins, and Candle Light were also in
the mall along with several other stores (and Big Lots, Kessel, and so
forth out front -- Big Lots is empty, and Kessel is now Save-A-Lot),
but all is gone now. Fort Saginaw sits empty, except for its Kmart,
which is still there. The rest of the mall behind Kmart looks decent
on the front (albeit boarded-up), but even the quickest look at the
back of the property reveals broken glass, a parking lot with potholes
big enough to swallow a Geo Metro, piles of junk, and tons of
graffiti. I don't remember when this mall closed -- it seems to have
closed in the mid 1990s, as a 1994 phone book still lists some of the
aforementioned stores. How sad that a piece of real estate such as
this has not seen the light of day, despite the sour neighborhood in
which it sits. There are fast foods, gas stations, and motels at this
exit, but very few are respectable establishments.

As a foot note, Cafaro Company still owns the empty shell of this
mall. The fact that Kmart is still open (though with its mall
connection severed) may suggest that the Kmart store is owned by Kmart
itself, and not Cafaro.

I would consider keeping Fort Saginaw alive as a different type of
establishment, rather than demolishing it. Perhaps a homeless shelter,
or a medical center of sorts, would be beneficial. The biggest problem
with buildings arises when nothing is done, and structures such as
dead malls are left to decay, and gather graffiti, broken glasses, and
animal carcasses instead of customers and workers.

[R.J.]

Hello,

Just to correct, the place in Neshaminy Mall, was an actual Jr.
Hot Shoppes, they also had a similar eatery called the Harvest House,
both were places of Buffet Style. Also in Neshaminy Mall, the
Strawbridge Store had a very good place to eat on the Second Floor,
looking over the mall.

Ray

Post by Regina Litman
I've cut the whole message because I try not to keep the entire message
in a reply when I'm only responding to parts of it, but I really
couldn't discern what parts to keep and what not to keep. I figured the
lesser of two evils was to not keep the original message at all, instead
of taking up a lot of space with it.
Thanks for keeping us up to date with this mall. I have only been there
once, on Tuesday, October 28, 1986, just before I moved to the
Philadelphia area. I was apartment shopping on both sides of the river
and ended up at this mall at lunch time. I ate at a York Steak House,
which I had seen at various malls during my travels, but we didn't have
them in the malls in the Maryland suburbs of Washington, DC, which is
where I was moving from. I believe this was my only visit to a York
Steak House. The one at Neshaminy Mall, which is much closer to where I
ended up living, closed not long after I moved into the area, and I
think the whole chain has disappeared, since I haven't seen one in years.
In the Washington area, instead of York Steak House, we had Hot Shoppes
Cafeterias in nearly every mall. They are all gone now, too. I think
that the proliferation of food courts have done in the cafeterias and
other informal sitdown restaurant chains like York that tended to be in
mall locations. (A few malls, such as Oxford Valley, have Friendly Ice
Cream, but most Friendly's are outside of malls. And a few upscale
chains such as Ruby Tuesdays, found in Willow Grove Park, Christiana
Mall in Delaware, and a mall I went to in Connecticut a few years ago,
are in malls but are there to attract a different customer base than the
food courts.)
So, put York Steak House on your list of businesses that have passed
through Echelon Mall during its history. In the unlikely event that it's
still there, I'd certainly like to know because I don't find too many of
these informal steak chains in the Philadelphia area these days. (By
"steak", I do not mean the thin slivers of meat served in a sandwich
with cheese and sometimes onions. Those are called "cheese steaks", but
a lot of the food establishments that specialize in them use just the
word "steaks" in their names.)
In the Washington, DC, area, a mall called Landover Mall opened right
next to the Beltway northeast of the city in 1972. I remember the ads on
the radio, "Landover Mall, you'll love it all." Or something close to
that. It was a bit far from where I lived, so I probably only went there
two or three times over the years. The area where it was located went
downscale over the years. In my visits to the DC area, I don't usually
travel on the section of the Beltway that goes past this mall, but I did
on November 16 of this year. I noticed when I passed Landover Mall that
the Sears store had put up a big sign proclaiming that it was open. I
wasn't driving, so I craned my neck for a better look. It appeared that
the rest of the mall was closed down. I asked one of my relatives down
there about this, and she said that, yes, the whole mall had closed
except for Sears.
It was 11 years ago this week that I first saw a large "dead" mall - it
was in Nashville. I was aware then that the Bucks County Mall/T.J. Maxx
Marketplace on Street Road in Feasterville didn't look like it was much
longer for this world, and in fact a few years later, most of this
structure was torn down to make way for a huge new Acme. I've since seen
or heard about other "dead" malls. Hunt Valley north of Baltimore looked
like it was pretty much dead when I visited it on June 12, 1999. The
reason I ended up there was that I had joy ridden the light rail system
to its northern terminus, which was in the mall's parking lot. Even with
this transit line come right onto its turf, the mall wasn't doing very well.
I forgot that there was another dead mall in the DC area about 25 years
ago. A mall originally called Rockville Mall and later renamed The
Commons at Courthouse Square in a last-ditch attempt to save it opened
in the middle of Rockville, MD, a suburban county seat, in 1971 or 1972.
Because I lived close to it, I spent a lot of time there during its
rather short life time. I know it lasted less than 10 years. Some things
1. Parking was limited and was not free (I think the first couple of
hours were free, then the charges kicked in), and while this is true of
the Gallery and other in-town malls, this mall was in a suburban
location where there were lots of nearby shopping centers and malls with
acres of free parking. Also, the only parking available was in a garage,
which gave some people the creeps. These days, some malls such as Willow
Grove Park and Bethesda, MD's Montgomery Mall (oops, I mean Westtown
Shopping Town - Bethesda), have built parking garages, but they do not
constitute the only available parking in these malls, and they are built
with a more open design than the one in Rockville had.
2. The only anchor store was Lansburgh's, a Washington area department
store chain that had lagged behind competitors Hecht's and Woodward and
Lothrop ("Woodies'") in branching out to newly built malls. Lansburgh's
was probably on its way downhill by the time it opened the Rockville
store, and it was gone within a couple of years. The store's parent
company no doubt still had some time left on its lease, so it opened a
branch of a store it ran in another market not too far to the north, Lit
Brothers. You folks in Philadelphia may have heard of it. The one in
Rockville was only there a short time; its closing may have coincided
with that of the rest of the chain. There may have been space for a
second anchor, but I don't recall one ever opening there.
3. When the mall opened, there were many vacant storefronts in addition
to that of a possible second anchor. There was not enough of a mix to
attract a large customer base.

...

[Bob B. Soxx]

Post by R.J.
Hello,
Just to correct, the place in Neshaminy Mall, was an actual Jr.
Hot Shoppes, they also had a similar eatery called the Harvest House,
both were places of Buffet Style. Also in Neshaminy Mall, the
Strawbridge Store had a very good place to eat on the Second Floor,
looking over the mall.
Ray

Harvest House - wow! I do believe that resraurant was on the lower level
right next to Woolworth's. BTW, does anyone remember when those Birth of
the Nation figures actually worked? When would that have been?

Bob

[R.J.]

Hi Bob,

Seems the messages have taken more of a turn to Bookstores
now. But at any rate, the Presidential figures were working last that
I saw, in the early 1990's. I was waiting to take my daughter to see
Santa, and they were on, speaking and moving. Also, at that time, the
very Large Clock on the wall, just above them, on Strawbridges, had
just been repaired, and was keeping time. Now I noticed, the hands
are missing again. I hope they fis that as well, nice to see the
older vintage stuff still functioning.

If anyone here has any knowledge of the Echelon MAll, Id love
to hear the experiences, and the stores, witht heir possible
locations. Same as with Moorestown Mall.

Thanks, Ray

Post by Bob B. Soxx

Post by R.J.
Hello,
Just to correct, the place in Neshaminy Mall, was an actual Jr.
Hot Shoppes, they also had a similar eatery called the Harvest House,
both were places of Buffet Style. Also in Neshaminy Mall, the
Strawbridge Store had a very good place to eat on the Second Floor,
looking over the mall.
Ray

Harvest House - wow! I do believe that resraurant was on the lower level
right next to Woolworth's. BTW, does anyone remember when those Birth of
the Nation figures actually worked? When would that have been?
Bob

...

[chris]

Post by R.J.
Hi Bob,
Seems the messages have taken more of a turn to Bookstores
now. But at any rate, the Presidential figures were working last that
I saw, in the early 1990's. I was waiting to take my daughter to see
Santa, and they were on, speaking and moving. Also, at that time, the
very Large Clock on the wall, just above them, on Strawbridges, had
just been repaired, and was keeping time. Now I noticed, the hands
are missing again. I hope they fis that as well, nice to see the
older vintage stuff still functioning.
If anyone here has any knowledge of the Echelon MAll, Id love
to hear the experiences, and the stores, witht heir possible
locations. Same as with Moorestown Mall.
Thanks, Ray

...

The Echelon Mall is a 2 level mall with 4 anchors though 2 are vacant.
The mall has plenty of parking in Southern NJ. The space allocated
for the developed mall could even accomodate a fifth major anchor
without parking garages.

However, the mall is located off county roads, not major highways.
The misleading I295 Exit 32 has "Echelon Mall Food Court", but one has
to drive 10 minutes on Haddonfield Berlin Road, then make a turn on a
small Somerdale road, another turn on an even smaller road, Laurel
Road. Its slightly closer off the Woodcrest Station exit, Exit 31,
but a driver would still have to take one lane residential roads. The
mall is around the PATCO stations: Woodcrest, Ashland and Lindenwold,
but not close enough. Its not walking distance from any PATCO
location.

Why couldnt a station be created at the intersection of Burnt Mill Rd
& Somerdale Road (in between Lindenwold & Ashland)? PATCO goes right
over it. It would have helped the mall.

The Echelon Mall lost its movie theater (and audience) to Ritz 16
Voorhees and Cinemark 16 Somerdale. Being that close, if a new movie
theater (my suggestion AMC24) was added to the mall, Cinemark 16 would
quickly close, bring the demise of Lions Head Plaza. Though the plaza
isnt worth saving and Walmart could take over that plaza or the plaza
could be demolished for something else like housing.

The mall being somewhat off 295 doesnt mean much when other malls are
quickly off the major South Jersey artery. East Gate Square and
Moorestown Mall are very close off I295, of Exit 36B Route 73 North.
The Sagemore at Promenade Route 73 South (36A).

To the south, Deptford off Exit 26, and to north is the Burlington
Center Mall very close off Exit 47. Further north is Quaker Bridge
Mall off Exit 67.
Competing Cherry Hill Mall is located close to the Ben Franklin
Bridge, and off Route 38.

The Moorestown Mall was originally the feeble mall in the area (after
the fire in the early 90s it had just 60% occupancy), but after
renovation today its doing better with the new Strawbridge's building,
Lord & Taylor, improved Boscovs, and East Gate Square nearby.

The Sears at Moorestown could use some sprucing up however. Its
dissapointing that the new Echelon Sears had to close, when it looked
new inside. In the late 90s, Sears opened in Echelon, but it
overmalled the mall, which being 2 stories (4 anchors) couldnt support
itself. Its major disadvantages were the mall is not convenient off
roads, and lost an attraction being movies. Sears closed after they
couldnt be profitable there, leaving a new empty vacant site.
JCPenney, at the dead end closed.

It would have been wise if 10 years ago, JCPenney moved to the other
side of the mall visible off the Burnt Mill Road where Sterns had
closed. Instead, they didnt and let Boscovs take a better anchor
site.

The FYE in the Echelon Mall recently closed, while the Sam Goody at
Moorestown Mall just closed. There is however Sam Goody still at
Echelon and FYE at Moorestown. It seems neither mall can support 2 CD
stores.

The Echelon Mall really isnt in as bad shape, as other places with
vacant buildings. I brought this mall up for discussion, but now
think its not in as bad condition as I originally felt. I still see
Boscovs, Strawbridges, LensCrafters, Gap, Kids Gap, Express (Men &
Women), Aeropostale, Wet Seal, Victoria Secret, Spencer Gifts, Littman
and Zales, The Shoe Dept., Foot Locker, Finish Line, Motherhood
Maternity, Payless, Sam Goody, Waldenbooks, Radio Shack, most the food
court joints being in for the long run.

I went there recently, and still think a little improvements could do
much and really revitalize the place quickly.

I would suggest:
brand new flooring for the mall,
get a restaurant to replace the former theater site: my choice
Bertuccis,
an AMC24 Movies at the JCPenney anchor site,
get small but national retailers to replace Sears: my choice: Dick's
Sporting Goods & Old Navy to replace Sears anchor site.

Target already has a Voorhees store and has no interest in the Mall.
Macy's JCPenney and Sears obviously have indicated no interest and
would be too duplicating to the Strawbridges and Boscovs tenants.
Kohls may have interest, but they are too much of the same also.

Walmart doesnt like 2 story malls, and would likely close off an
entrance to the mall, not helping the mall at all. They wouldnt want
to be off small roads either. Thus, I feel something different like
Dick's and Old Navy could bring a better future for the mall.

Lure H&M into the large ex-Gantos site (located within the mall), and
get other national stores like Champs Sporting Goods, Ann Taylor Loft
to open. There are dozens of mom & pop stores, or non traditional
specialty stores such as the Son Shine Christian Stores (located on
small plazas) that could use the mall exposure.

Also, many of the vacancies on the second floor (near JCPenney end),
could be combined to accomodate a furniture store, or few offices.
Offices are better than dead wall.

Right now, the JCPenney Sears end still has LensCrafters anchoring the
side of that side of the mall. The LensCrafters has an external
entrance too. Few stores are located around it, and LensCrafters does
bring in people. These stores arent moving to be in better parts of
the mall.

In Southern NJ, Route 130 in Burlington County is in greater distress
than Echelon.

[Regina Litman]

Post by chris
The FYE in the Echelon Mall recently closed, while the Sam Goody at
Moorestown Mall just closed. There is however Sam Goody still at
Echelon and FYE at Moorestown. It seems neither mall can support 2 CD
stores.

This seems to be happening to other malls, just as it's happening with
bookstores - just one of a kind now. In fact, I had not come across a
Sam Goody in the Philadelphia area in a few years until I stopped off at
Plymouth Meeting mall this past October 18 to kill time in between
events I attended out in that direction. (I bought the Elvis CD "Second
to None" there.) On September 29, I saw Sam Goody listed on the
directory of Neshaminy Mall, and I remembered patronizing them from time
to time when I worked in that area during the 1990s. But when I went to
the store location, I found that it was now an FYE. Other Sam Goodys
have become FYEs (as have former sites of The Wall, some of which were
previously Wall-to-Wall Sound), so I wasn't surprised. When I was in the
Plymouth Meeting Sam Goody 19 days later, they told me that the
Neshaminy Mall store had been closed only recently, so that may explain
why the mall directory still showed it.

There was a Wall-to-Wall Sound-turned-The Wall at the other end of
Neshaminy Mall, and I wonder if that is now an FYE, too. And having two
FYEs in the same mall as a result of multiple takeovers is not unheard
of - Willow Grove Park has had (and may still have) two FYEs at once.
One was on the third level of the mall right next to Bloomingdale's on
the right as you face "Bloomie's", and the other was on the first level
directly below it.

Post by chris
The Echelon Mall really isnt in as bad shape, as other places with
vacant buildings. I brought this mall up for discussion, but now
think its not in as bad condition as I originally felt. I still see
Boscovs, Strawbridges, LensCrafters, Gap, Kids Gap, Express (Men &
Women), Aeropostale, Wet Seal, Victoria Secret, Spencer Gifts, Littman
and Zales, The Shoe Dept., Foot Locker, Finish Line, Motherhood
Maternity, Payless, Sam Goody, Waldenbooks, Radio Shack, most the food
court joints being in for the long run.

...

One more store at Echelon is going to be closing soon, if it hasn't
already, but it is because the whole chain is shutting down. It's the
Remington shop. I read an article about the closing of the Center City
store in the Inquirer a few days ago, and it was mentioned that the
other area stores, in Franklin Mills, King of Prussia, and Echelon Mall,
would also be closing. I thought right away about how Echelon has been
losing stores and thought it was a shame that they'd be losing yet
another one in a move that may have had nothing to do with the mall's
current situation.

[I am NOT Gene Wood!]

Post by chris
The FYE in the Echelon Mall recently closed, while the Sam Goody at
Moorestown Mall just closed. There is however Sam Goody still at
Echelon and FYE at Moorestown. It seems neither mall can support 2 CD
stores.

Same thing happened with book stores in Crossroads Mall in Portage AND
Maple Hill Mall. Both used to have B Dalton and Waldenbooks -- now
among the four, only one of Crossroads' bookstores remains. Ditto
Genesee Valley Mall, which used to have B Dalton and Waldenbooks; only
the former remains.

However, last I checked, Lakeview Square in Battle Creek had two FYE's
(one formerly a Camelot, the other formerly a Record Town.) Also, some
malls have both FYE and Sam Goody here ... Fashion Square in Saginaw
comes to mind.

Notable exception: The JC Penney wing of Midland Mall (in Midland,
duh) used to have Sam Goody and Waldenbooks... Goody was still empty
last I checked, but Waldenbooks is now, ironically, part of a new
Barnes & Noble! Still no CD store though, unless B & N counts.

BTW, I've noticed a lot of Foot Lockers leaving malls (e. g. Alpena
Mall, Bay City Mall, Cherryland Mall, etc. etc.). Is this just NE
Michigan, or nationwide?

[Gene J. Yao]

Post by Regina Litman
One more store at Echelon is going to be closing soon, if it hasn't
already, but it is because the whole chain is shutting down. It's the
Remington shop.

Similarly, the FAO Schwartz store in King of Prussia is closing.
Again, this is due to the whole chain closing though some other group
is contemplating buying the NYC and SF stores and the rights to the
name. I guess this will be even more cause for future generations of
Nooyawkuhs to practice thier favorite statement "nyah, nyah, we've got
something you don't".

[Regina Litman]

An update on the subject of multiple bookstores and multiple CD stores
in Philadelphia area malls that are not in King of Prussia - In the past
week, I had time to stick my head into (but not do much else) both
Neshaminy Mall and the Gallery and look at the store directories.

The directory in Neshaminy Mall (food court entrance) no longer lists
Sam Goody but does list FYE. However, the FYE does not have a number
indicating its location next to its name. I'm guessing that the FYE in
the mallway between Strawbridge's and Boscov's (formerly The Wall and
before that, Wall-to-Wall Sound) has been closed, and the only FYE in
the mall is now in the old Sam Goody store near Sears.

The directory in the Gallery (train station entrance) shows that the
mall still has a B. Dalton (visible from this entrance), a Waldenbooks,
an FYE, and a Sam Goody. So this rather large mall with a lot of foot
traffice appears to be able to support two stores of each type. Of
course, this mall has lost a J.C. Penney anchor store, and the central
anchor store has gone from Gimbel's to Stern's to Clover to KMart, with
some vacant times in between some of these incarnations, over the years
in which I've been familiar with this mall (including some visits before
I moved here in late 1986). Don't ever say you were in the Clover in the
Gallery on a Tuesday the first because during the short time it was
open, the first of the month never fell on a Tuesday!

Post by Regina Litman
This seems to be happening to other malls, just as it's happening with
bookstores - just one of a kind now. In fact, I had not come across a
Sam Goody in the Philadelphia area in a few years until I stopped off at
Plymouth Meeting mall this past October 18 to kill time in between
events I attended out in that direction. (I bought the Elvis CD "Second
to None" there.) On September 29, I saw Sam Goody listed on the
directory of Neshaminy Mall, and I remembered patronizing them from time
to time when I worked in that area during the 1990s. But when I went to
the store location, I found that it was now an FYE. Other Sam Goodys
have become FYEs (as have former sites of The Wall, some of which were
previously Wall-to-Wall Sound), so I wasn't surprised. When I was in the
Plymouth Meeting Sam Goody 19 days later, they told me that the
Neshaminy Mall store had been closed only recently, so that may explain
why the mall directory still showed it.
There was a Wall-to-Wall Sound-turned-The Wall at the other end of
Neshaminy Mall, and I wonder if that is now an FYE, too. And having two
FYEs in the same mall as a result of multiple takeovers is not unheard
of - Willow Grove Park has had (and may still have) two FYEs at once.
One was on the third level of the mall right next to Bloomingdale's on
the right as you face "Bloomie's", and the other was on the first level
directly below it.

...

[R.J.]

Hi Chris,


Very Interesting Ideas on the Echelon Mall. Another one closing
there is the Croydon Mattress Factory on the Second Floor. I am
waiting patiently to see some changes. I know much work was being
sone in the vacant Sears Building, just prior to the Holidays, in the
evenings. It looks as though something may be coming there, they even
believe that at the Info Center on first floor. They told me, that
there were going to be improvements coming, after the New Year. But
would noot let me know what. I dont think Kohls would be interested,
because they are building a Brand New one, at Cooper Road, and Rt. 73,
next to Raymour and Flannigan. Also building a Friendly's next to
Applebees in the Ritz Plaza Shopping Center.

Ray

Post by chris

Post by R.J.
Hi Bob,
Seems the messages have taken more of a turn to Bookstores
now. But at any rate, the Presidential figures were working last that
I saw, in the early 1990's. I was waiting to take my daughter to see
Santa, and they were on, speaking and moving. Also, at that time, the
very Large Clock on the wall, just above them, on Strawbridges, had
just been repaired, and was keeping time. Now I noticed, the hands
are missing again. I hope they fis that as well, nice to see the
older vintage stuff still functioning.
If anyone here has any knowledge of the Echelon MAll, Id love
to hear the experiences, and the stores, witht heir possible
locations. Same as with Moorestown Mall.
Thanks, Ray

The Echelon Mall is a 2 level mall with 4 anchors though 2 are vacant.
The mall has plenty of parking in Southern NJ. The space allocated
for the developed mall could even accomodate a fifth major anchor
without parking garages.
However, the mall is located off county roads, not major highways.
The misleading I295 Exit 32 has "Echelon Mall Food Court", but one has
to drive 10 minutes on Haddonfield Berlin Road, then make a turn on a
small Somerdale road, another turn on an even smaller road, Laurel
Road. Its slightly closer off the Woodcrest Station exit, Exit 31,
but a driver would still have to take one lane residential roads. The
mall is around the PATCO stations: Woodcrest, Ashland and Lindenwold,
but not close enough. Its not walking distance from any PATCO
location.
Why couldnt a station be created at the intersection of Burnt Mill Rd
& Somerdale Road (in between Lindenwold & Ashland)? PATCO goes right
over it. It would have helped the mall.
The Echelon Mall lost its movie theater (and audience) to Ritz 16
Voorhees and Cinemark 16 Somerdale. Being that close, if a new movie
theater (my suggestion AMC24) was added to the mall, Cinemark 16 would
quickly close, bring the demise of Lions Head Plaza. Though the plaza
isnt worth saving and Walmart could take over that plaza or the plaza
could be demolished for something else like housing.
The mall being somewhat off 295 doesnt mean much when other malls are
quickly off the major South Jersey artery. East Gate Square and
Moorestown Mall are very close off I295, of Exit 36B Route 73 North.
The Sagemore at Promenade Route 73 South (36A).
To the south, Deptford off Exit 26, and to north is the Burlington
Center Mall very close off Exit 47. Further north is Quaker Bridge
Mall off Exit 67.
Competing Cherry Hill Mall is located close to the Ben Franklin
Bridge, and off Route 38.
The Moorestown Mall was originally the feeble mall in the area (after
the fire in the early 90s it had just 60% occupancy), but after
renovation today its doing better with the new Strawbridge's building,
Lord & Taylor, improved Boscovs, and East Gate Square nearby.
The Sears at Moorestown could use some sprucing up however. Its
dissapointing that the new Echelon Sears had to close, when it looked
new inside. In the late 90s, Sears opened in Echelon, but it
overmalled the mall, which being 2 stories (4 anchors) couldnt support
itself. Its major disadvantages were the mall is not convenient off
roads, and lost an attraction being movies. Sears closed after they
couldnt be profitable there, leaving a new empty vacant site.
JCPenney, at the dead end closed.
It would have been wise if 10 years ago, JCPenney moved to the other
side of the mall visible off the Burnt Mill Road where Sterns had
closed. Instead, they didnt and let Boscovs take a better anchor
site.
The FYE in the Echelon Mall recently closed, while the Sam Goody at
Moorestown Mall just closed. There is however Sam Goody still at
Echelon and FYE at Moorestown. It seems neither mall can support 2 CD
stores.
The Echelon Mall really isnt in as bad shape, as other places with
vacant buildings. I brought this mall up for discussion, but now
think its not in as bad condition as I originally felt. I still see
Boscovs, Strawbridges, LensCrafters, Gap, Kids Gap, Express (Men &
Women), Aeropostale, Wet Seal, Victoria Secret, Spencer Gifts, Littman
and Zales, The Shoe Dept., Foot Locker, Finish Line, Motherhood
Maternity, Payless, Sam Goody, Waldenbooks, Radio Shack, most the food
court joints being in for the long run.
I went there recently, and still think a little improvements could do
much and really revitalize the place quickly.
brand new flooring for the mall,
get a restaurant to replace the former theater site: my choice
Bertuccis,
an AMC24 Movies at the JCPenney anchor site,
get small but national retailers to replace Sears: my choice: Dick's
Sporting Goods & Old Navy to replace Sears anchor site.
Target already has a Voorhees store and has no interest in the Mall.
Macy's JCPenney and Sears obviously have indicated no interest and
would be too duplicating to the Strawbridges and Boscovs tenants.
Kohls may have interest, but they are too much of the same also.
Walmart doesnt like 2 story malls, and would likely close off an
entrance to the mall, not helping the mall at all. They wouldnt want
to be off small roads either. Thus, I feel something different like
Dick's and Old Navy could bring a better future for the mall.
Lure H&M into the large ex-Gantos site (located within the mall), and
get other national stores like Champs Sporting Goods, Ann Taylor Loft
to open. There are dozens of mom & pop stores, or non traditional
specialty stores such as the Son Shine Christian Stores (located on
small plazas) that could use the mall exposure.
Also, many of the vacancies on the second floor (near JCPenney end),
could be combined to accomodate a furniture store, or few offices.
Offices are better than dead wall.
Right now, the JCPenney Sears end still has LensCrafters anchoring the
side of that side of the mall. The LensCrafters has an external
entrance too. Few stores are located around it, and LensCrafters does
bring in people. These stores arent moving to be in better parts of
the mall.
In Southern NJ, Route 130 in Burlington County is in greater distress
than Echelon.

...

[chris]

Post by R.J.
Hi Chris,
Very Interesting Ideas on the Echelon Mall. Another one closing
there is the Croydon Mattress Factory on the Second Floor. I am
waiting patiently to see some changes. I know much work was being
sone in the vacant Sears Building, just prior to the Holidays, in the
evenings. It looks as though something may be coming there, they even
believe that at the Info Center on first floor. They told me, that
there were going to be improvements coming, after the New Year. But
would noot let me know what. I dont think Kohls would be interested,
because they are building a Brand New one, at Cooper Road, and Rt. 73,
next to Raymour and Flannigan. Also building a Friendly's next to
Applebees in the Ritz Plaza Shopping Center.

...

Having been to Cherry Hill and Moorestown Malls, they seem healthy but
are not so much in better shape than Echelon. Eddie Bauer failed in
Cherry Hill. Yet, EB is still open in other successful centers such
as Deptford Mall and Menlo Park Mall (Northern Central Jersey). The
Tommy Hilfiger store closed down in Cherry Hill. That store was way
overpriced, but I originally figured the Cherry Hill could support
such.

It was replaced by a Christmas store (which didnt change any of the
Tommy Hilfiger's facade except name), but thats currently closed.
Cherry Hill Mall usually gets its sites replaced quick, but the mall
may go in decline if only regional/mom & pop stores take interest in
sites. I actually think some regional or local stores are good to
differentiate malls, but often they are victim of closing down very
soon. Maybe those mall lease rates are too much for them. Eddie
Bauer was replaced by a local leather coat joint (not a national
company...it looked like a store one would see in the Gallery) which
kept Eddie Bauer's facade, and now that store also has its store
closing signs up.

If the demographic is changing, probably more stores with lower prices
will be more notable there. I expect Finish Line to make a move into
Cherry Hill Mall. They are not in either Cherry Hill or Moorestown,
but only in the slumpy Echelon Mall, though they have a good large
location in Echelon near the Food Court. There are couple of vacant
sites at Moorestown too, along with the recent closure of Sam Goody.
I havent seen new national stores lately open up in Cherry Hill Mall.
Benetton and other upscale stores ignored the local enclosed malls,
and took advantage of the Promenade in Marlton instead.

[Gene J. Yao]

Post by chris
Having been to Cherry Hill and Moorestown Malls, they seem healthy but
are not so much in better shape than Echelon. Eddie Bauer failed in
Cherry Hill. Yet, EB is still open in other successful centers such
as Deptford Mall and Menlo Park Mall (Northern Central Jersey). The
Tommy Hilfiger store closed down in Cherry Hill. That store was way
overpriced, but I originally figured the Cherry Hill could support
such.

I think Eddie Bauer closed down underperforming stores in a lot of
places recently. The economic downturn has not been good to them. As
for Tommy Hilfiger, I wasn't aware they had a store in Cherry Hill (I
rarely cross the river into South Jersey). They probably would have
done better in the Promenade. Cherry Hill Mall just isn't the place
for them. Perhaps they are movign or have moved to the Promenade. I
believe the King of Prussia store is still open and doing fine. By the
way, I really have my doubts as to how much upscale retail Cherry Hill
Mall can support. Cherry Hill Mall is, by itself, nothing special.
They don't have upscale department stores like Nordstrom,
Bllomingdales, Neiman Marcus, and Lord and Taylor the way King of
Prussia has. Stores like Tommy Hilfiger derive customers from passers
by who go to the mall for destination stores like Nordstroms, Neiman,
etc. Your typical Strawbridges' customer is not going to shop at
Tommy Hilfiger (they may get TH clothes from Strawbridges but not the
overpriced stuff at TH). I think the reason some upscale stores
located in Cherry Hill was because of the lack of any other beter
place to locate in South Jersey. However, now there's the Promenade
in Marlton and that is now the new "it" destination for the more
upscale places.

Post by chris
It was replaced by a Christmas store (which didnt change any of the
Tommy Hilfiger's facade except name), but thats currently closed.

"Christmas stores" are usually put up temporarily in abandoned
stores. They are only meant to be temporary (hence why they didn't
remodel) and last only until teh end of the Christmas season (maybe a
little after so they can sell fof thier surplus).

Post by chris
Cherry Hill Mall usually gets its sites replaced quick, but the mall
may go in decline if only regional/mom & pop stores take interest in
sites. I actually think some regional or local stores are good to
differentiate malls, but often they are victim of closing down very
soon. Maybe those mall lease rates are too much for them. Eddie
Bauer was replaced by a local leather coat joint (not a national
company...it looked like a store one would see in the Gallery) which
kept Eddie Bauer's facade, and now that store also has its store
closing signs up.

...

I recall when Bally closed down in King of Prussia they replaced
it with a Keiths, Inc. which struck me as a local store. They
specialized in selling weird furniture (stuff that looked medieval)
and was VERY out of place in that section of KoP, next to Neiman
Marcus and all. I suspect that Ketihs was meant only as a temporary
establishment in the mall. When Bally closed down that store was
vacant for months while the mall apparently was shopping around for
another high rent tenant. Then they probably allowed Keiths, Inc. in
for a temporary lease with the understanding that they'd be booted out
once a high rent tenant was found. Later Louis Vuitton moved in (from
another location in the mall) and the old LV spot was taken over by
some high rent clothing shop (forgot the name but it definitely didn't
look local).

Post by chris
If the demographic is changing, probably more stores with lower prices
will be more notable there. I expect Finish Line to make a move into
Cherry Hill Mall. They are not in either Cherry Hill or Moorestown,
but only in the slumpy Echelon Mall, though they have a good large
location in Echelon near the Food Court. There are couple of vacant
sites at Moorestown too, along with the recent closure of Sam Goody.
I havent seen new national stores lately open up in Cherry Hill Mall.
Benetton and other upscale stores ignored the local enclosed malls,
and took advantage of the Promenade in Marlton instead.

...

And they'll continue to do so. the upscale chains tend to schew
malls since malls are often seen as places for mid-level chains and
not exclusive enough. Malls don't have the cachet. The onyl
exceptions are the big regioanl malls which are appealing to upscale
chains because they often ahve upscale department stores (which
generally like malls). King of Prussia is such a mall, so are the
"Paramus Mall" in North Jersey, and Tysons Corner in northern VA.
Cherry Hill is not a regional mall but rather a local mall which
basically serves south Jersey and parts of Philadelphia.

[chris]

Post by Gene J. Yao

Post by chris
Having been to Cherry Hill and Moorestown Malls, they seem healthy but
are not so much in better shape than Echelon. Eddie Bauer failed in
Cherry Hill. Yet, EB is still open in other successful centers such
as Deptford Mall and Menlo Park Mall (Northern Central Jersey). The
Tommy Hilfiger store closed down in Cherry Hill. That store was way
overpriced, but I originally figured the Cherry Hill could support
such.

I think Eddie Bauer closed down underperforming stores in a lot of
places recently. The economic downturn has not been good to them. As
for Tommy Hilfiger, I wasn't aware they had a store in Cherry Hill (I
rarely cross the river into South Jersey). They probably would have
done better in the Promenade. Cherry Hill Mall just isn't the place
for them. Perhaps they are movign or have moved to the Promenade.

...

Actually, they closed both the Cherry Hill and Promenade stores:
http://tenant-search.net/dealmakers/2003issues/jan31/closings.asp

Post by Gene J. Yao
believe the King of Prussia store is still open and doing fine. By the
way, I really have my doubts as to how much upscale retail Cherry Hill
Mall can support. Cherry Hill Mall is, by itself, nothing special.

Well, Cherry Hill Mall does bring special attaction often. Jessica
Simpson performed in the mall this Christmas. It has one of the
closer Macy's, JCPenney to Center City also. I believe Cherry Hill
can support some upscale retail especially between the Strawbridge's
and Macy's section of the mall. I can tell that the rent must be
higher at this portion of the mall, than the 2 level portion where
JCPenney is where one will see Radio Shack, a Pet store, Gertrude &
Hawk etc. However, it is mixing up. After Woolworth's was boarded
up, it was replaced by Foot Locker, Kids Foot Locker and Lady Foot
Locker. So, sneaker outlets may be next to the Ann Taylor or
whatever.

Post by Gene J. Yao
They don't have upscale department stores like Nordstrom,
Bllomingdales, Neiman Marcus, and Lord and Taylor the way King of
Prussia has. Stores like Tommy Hilfiger derive customers from passers
by who go to the mall for destination stores like Nordstroms, Neiman,
etc. Your typical Strawbridges' customer is not going to shop at
Tommy Hilfiger (they may get TH clothes from Strawbridges but not the
overpriced stuff at TH). I think the reason some upscale stores
located in Cherry Hill was because of the lack of any other beter
place to locate in South Jersey. However, now there's the Promenade
in Marlton and that is now the new "it" destination for the more
upscale places.

...

I have doubts about the Promenade. I just dont see the point of
walking around in inclement weather. Its also considerably smaller
shopping center.

The Marlton Square (which has Gap, Pottery Barn and Victoria Secret)
is not connected and not walking distance to the Promenade. Thus, its
two splintered shopping centers in Marlton, although off the same
Route 73. Marlton Crossing has the discount stores: DSW Shoe
Warehouse, Burlington Coat Factory, TJMaxx and Joyce Leslie.
Originally, the plaza was more traditional with Builder's Square,
Superfresh, CVS Pharmacy and smaller TJMaxx. CVS moved across the
street to a new standalone location, a 24x7hr. location.

I do agree that Promenade could steal Cherry Hill's chance of getting
some new upscale stores, thus forcing Cherry Hill to become what
Echelon Mall used to be -the #2 place for tenants. But, I dont see
Promenade being hugely successful. Its closer to Atlantic County and
all, and likely can get some shoppers from that end of Southern
jersey.

Post by Gene J. Yao

Post by chris
It was replaced by a Christmas store (which didnt change any of the
Tommy Hilfiger's facade except name), but thats currently closed.

"Christmas stores" are usually put up temporarily in abandoned
stores. They are only meant to be temporary (hence why they didn't
remodel) and last only until teh end of the Christmas season (maybe a
little after so they can sell fof thier surplus).

Post by chris
Cherry Hill Mall usually gets its sites replaced quick, but the mall
may go in decline if only regional/mom & pop stores take interest in
sites. I actually think some regional or local stores are good to
differentiate malls, but often they are victim of closing down very
soon. Maybe those mall lease rates are too much for them. Eddie
Bauer was replaced by a local leather coat joint (not a national
company...it looked like a store one would see in the Gallery) which
kept Eddie Bauer's facade, and now that store also has its store
closing signs up.

I recall when Bally closed down in King of Prussia they replaced
it with a Keiths, Inc. which struck me as a local store. They
specialized in selling weird furniture (stuff that looked medieval)
and was VERY out of place in that section of KoP, next to Neiman
Marcus and all. I suspect that Ketihs was meant only as a temporary
establishment in the mall. When Bally closed down that store was
vacant for months while the mall apparently was shopping around for
another high rent tenant. Then they probably allowed Keiths, Inc. in
for a temporary lease with the understanding that they'd be booted out
once a high rent tenant was found. Later Louis Vuitton moved in (from
another location in the mall) and the old LV spot was taken over by
some high rent clothing shop (forgot the name but it definitely didn't
look local).

Post by chris
If the demographic is changing, probably more stores with lower prices
will be more notable there. I expect Finish Line to make a move into
Cherry Hill Mall. They are not in either Cherry Hill or Moorestown,
but only in the slumpy Echelon Mall, though they have a good large
location in Echelon near the Food Court. There are couple of vacant
sites at Moorestown too, along with the recent closure of Sam Goody.
I havent seen new national stores lately open up in Cherry Hill Mall.
Benetton and other upscale stores ignored the local enclosed malls,
and took advantage of the Promenade in Marlton instead.

And they'll continue to do so. the upscale chains tend to schew
malls since malls are often seen as places for mid-level chains and
not exclusive enough. Malls don't have the cachet. The onyl
exceptions are the big regioanl malls which are appealing to upscale
chains because they often ahve upscale department stores (which
generally like malls). King of Prussia is such a mall, so are the
"Paramus Mall" in North Jersey, and Tysons Corner in northern VA.
Cherry Hill is not a regional mall but rather a local mall which
basically serves south Jersey and parts of Philadelphia.

...

[Gene J. Yao]

Post by chris
http://tenant-search.net/dealmakers/2003issues/jan31/closings.asp

That's a shame. I'm actually surprised Tommy Hilfiger would
operate two stores so relatively close to each other when they have
only one in all of Pennsylvania. Anyway, it seems like their closure
is national in scope with them shrinking to the NYC and LA areas and
closing stores everywhere else. They originally were going to open a
store on Walnut Street in Center City Philadelphia but pulled out of a
lease in the wake of 9-11. I think that was when things began to turn
for them and they realized that their stand alone stores would just
not work.

Post by chris
Well, Cherry Hill Mall does bring special attaction often. Jessica
Simpson performed in the mall this Christmas. It has one of the
closer Macy's, JCPenney to Center City also. I believe Cherry Hill
can support some upscale retail especially between the Strawbridge's
and Macy's section of the mall. I can tell that the rent must be
higher at this portion of the mall, than the 2 level portion where
JCPenney is where one will see Radio Shack, a Pet store, Gertrude &
Hawk etc. However, it is mixing up. After Woolworth's was boarded
up, it was replaced by Foot Locker, Kids Foot Locker and Lady Foot
Locker. So, sneaker outlets may be next to the Ann Taylor or
whatever.

...

Foot Locker is owned by the current incarnation of Woolworths
(Vornado). When Woolworths decided to get out of general discount
stores it morphed into Vornado which owns Foot Locker. To the dismay
of many mall owners, instead of allowing other stores to open in
former Woolworths locations, they've decided to hold onto their leases
and prime positions by substituting Foot Lockers in for Woolworths.

Post by chris
I have doubts about the Promenade. I just dont see the point of
walking around in inclement weather. Its also considerably smaller
shopping center.

I think the high profile stores in there like it that way (an open
air center instead of a mall) since it allows for them to be more
visible from the outside. If they were in Cherry Hill Mall people
would not know that they were there unless they went inside and the
upper middle class customers who patronize places like Williams Sonoma
generally do not want to step foot in Cherry Hill Mall or any mall for
that matter since they are seen as declasse. Exceptions to the rule
are King of Prussia, which has become a well rounded mall which people
of all tastes would not feel uncomfortable in and Princeton's Market
Fair Mall which is exclusively upper middle class specialty shops.
The Promenade may not seem successful but that's only because it draws
less volume than Cherry Hill which is to be expected given that the
clientele its going for is less populous. The stores in there expect
that and make up for that by charging higher prices.

[Regina Litman]

Post by Gene J. Yao
I think the high profile stores in there like it that way (an open
air center instead of a mall) since it allows for them to be more
visible from the outside. If they were in Cherry Hill Mall people
would not know that they were there unless they went inside and the
upper middle class customers who patronize places like Williams Sonoma
generally do not want to step foot in Cherry Hill Mall or any mall for
that matter since they are seen as declasse. Exceptions to the rule
are King of Prussia, which has become a well rounded mall which people
of all tastes would not feel uncomfortable in and Princeton's Market
Fair Mall which is exclusively upper middle class specialty shops.
The Promenade may not seem successful but that's only because it draws
less volume than Cherry Hill which is to be expected given that the
clientele its going for is less populous. The stores in there expect
that and make up for that by charging higher prices.

...

There's a Williams and Sonoma in Willow Grove Park, at the
Bloomingdale's end. I know, because when I worked in Housewares in that
mall's Strawbridges just over two years ago in the holiday season, they
were considered to be a major competitor. But it was a friendly thing -
we would suggest to shoppers who needed an upscale item we didn't carry
to try to find it there. (If the item was more downscale that what we
normally carried, we would suggest K-Mart, which has a free-standing
store just outside the mall.) I think that Oxford Valley Mall also has a
Williams and Sonoma.

[chris]

Post by Gene J. Yao
I recall when Bally closed down in King of Prussia they replaced
it with a Keiths, Inc. which struck me as a local store. They
specialized in selling weird furniture (stuff that looked medieval)
and was VERY out of place in that section of KoP, next to Neiman
Marcus and all. I suspect that Ketihs was meant only as a temporary
establishment in the mall. When Bally closed down that store was
vacant for months while the mall apparently was shopping around for
another high rent tenant. Then they probably allowed Keiths, Inc. in
for a temporary lease with the understanding that they'd be booted out
once a high rent tenant was found. Later Louis Vuitton moved in (from
another location in the mall) and the old LV spot was taken over by
some high rent clothing shop (forgot the name but it definitely didn't
look local).

...

Thats the name of it. When Tommy Hilfiger closed down, it was
replaced quickly by Keith's, then replaced by the Christmas Store. I
was dissapointed that a strange furniture store would be the
replacement for that.

I suppose Keith's is into getting temporary leases, only to be booted
out until a higher rent tenant is found. I think Keith's has a long
term spot at Moorestown Mall though.

I dont know what Cherry Hill Mall management has in plans for the
Tommy Hilfiger site and the Eddie Bauer site. The EB site became a
halloween outlet, then a local leather jacket store which is closing.
As I wrote earlier, I think Finish Line would be interested, since
they are only in Echelon, which doesnt draw much crowd anymore. I

You are right that Cherry Hill is not a destination mall for the
Philadelphia market, but I do think for the 3 county area (of Camden,
Burlington and some of Philadelphia county), it is a destination
center for those residents. Burlington Center Mall, Moorestown and
Echelon, The Gallery, are significant notches below Cherry Hill Mall.

Deptford Mall has a dominance on Gloucester, Salem and Cumberland
County, with less competition, and draws some also from Camden,
Atlantic and maybe Philadelphia too. Cherry Hill has more
competition (though Echelon and Moorestown are technically co-owned by
the same management), and Promenade now too that are closer.

Cherry Hill Mall owner PREIT doesnt even want the mall attracting the
upscale tenants. The PREIT owners want the Moorestown Mall to go
upscale, and want to water down Cherry Hill. They just want to lure
restaurants (Red Lobster, Bertuccis as outparcels).

They may feel that Cherry Hill Mall is closer to more challenged areas
(Pennsauken, Camden), while Moorestown is closer to the more healthier
areas (Mt.Laurel, Marlton, Cherry Hill East) and Moorestown may be in
better position to hold the upscale shops.

http://www.courierpostonline.com/community/shopping03.html

"He described the Echelon Mall as the "most challenging" because two
anchor stores are vacant.

He considers the Cherry Hill Mall "a phenomenal asset," but in need of
exterior work, including reconstruction of a dismantled pedestrian
walkway over Route 38.

Moorestown's upscale demographics, he said, will provide opportunities
for high-end retail."


However as of now, Moorestown is just a typical smaller-medium sized
mall.

Another retailer, Jos A. Bank has a location in the Liberty Place, an
enclosed center.

But for South Jersey, they chose an outdoors location over an enclosed
mall for the area. East Gate Square(has Best Buy, Home Depot, etc.),
although not like the Promenade in any way, is also another big place
that retailers look into and Jos A. Bank chose that place, along with
Promenade. More competition, and less lure to the malls, will lead to
the dying off of some of them.

[Gene J. Yao]

Post by Bob B. Soxx
Harvest House - wow! I do believe that resraurant was on the lower level
right next to Woolworth's. BTW, does anyone remember when those Birth of
the Nation figures actually worked? When would that have been?

I believe Harvest House was owned by Woolworths. I think both of
these stores an anachronisms from the 60's and 70's (a cafeteria in a
mall and a discount store in a mall). Its a wonder that they lasted
into the 90's.

[Regina Litman]

Post by R.J.
Hello,
Just to correct, the place in Neshaminy Mall, was an actual Jr.
Hot Shoppes, they also had a similar eatery called the Harvest House,
both were places of Buffet Style. Also in Neshaminy Mall, the
Strawbridge Store had a very good place to eat on the Second Floor,
looking over the mall.

When I first moved here (late 1980s, first trip to Neshaminy Mall was no
later than February 13, 1988, Sat. of President's Day weekend), there
was a Roy Rogers in Neshaminy Mall. I know that a lot of the Jr. Hot
Shoppes eventually became Roy Rogers. But I thought I had seen a York
Steak House, too, where a "doc in the box" dental office occupied space
until a food court expansion took place in late 1995-early 1996.

I worked very close to Neshaminy Mall from October 26, 1989, through
April 7, twenty hundred. So, I became a lot more familiar with this mall
during that time period. On a visit there in early 1989, I was
disappointed to find that they didn't have a food court, but in
mid-year, I learned that one was under construction. I visited the mall
again on October 18, 1989, and found the food court was open for
business. I did not know at the time that just over a week later, I
would be working so close to the mall and be patronizing it so much.

When the food court was opened in 1989, it was in the same part of the
mall where it is today. However, while the space between the various
concessions and the doors to the outside is now filled with additional
seating, back then, there were two service-oriented businesses on either
side of the mallway. On the left was the dental office, where I thought
I had seen York Steak House in the pre-food court days. On the right was
what was then called Philadelphia National Bank (PNB), which had moved
inside the mall from an outside pad court shortly before I became a
regular visitor to the mall.

I don't know what happened to the dental office, but in between that
move into the mall and the mid-1990s food court expansion, PNB's parent
corporation, CoreStates, had bought Germantown Savings Bank (GSB), which
occupied a larger space in the mall. So, the PNB office had moved to the
old GSB location. I would guess that a Wachovia now occupies the old GSB
site, right across from Sears.

I remember both the Harvest House and the Strawbridge's restaurant on
the terrace. I am pretty sure that Harvest House was run by Woolworth's
because I recall seeing some next to Woolworth's at other malls,
including the one in Bethesda, MD, that used to be called Montgomery
Mall but now has some branded name like Westtown Shopping
Something-or-Other Bethesda. The only other non-food court restaurant I
recall from Neshaminy Mall was an Italian place with a name something
like Cafe Riviera. I only ate there once or twice, and as I recall,
people went through a serving line to place their orders.

In recent years, the mall has expanded and now has at least one very
nice-looking sit-down restaurant near the movie theatres. I haven't
eaten there yet, though. There's also a new Mexican chain restaurant on
a pad site called On The Border. Right across the street, there's a new
strip shopping center with a Target and a Home Depot plus two more
decent chain restaurants on pad sites, Longhorn and Ruby Tuesday's.
(However, if the latter is laid out like the stand-along Ruby Tuesday's
in Warrington and has not adapted the no-smoking policy that makes the
Willow Grove Park Ruby Tuesday's so delightful, it would not be a very
comfortable place for people who want to avoid cigarette smoke to eat
in. I haven't been to this one yet.)

Speaking of malls and food courts, I thought every large regional mall
with major anchor stores would have one by now. I was wrong. Needing to
be in Springfield, Delware County, PA, on the evening of October 8 of
this year, I bypassed the known food courts at Oxford Valley and
Neshaminy Malls on my way there from the Trenton area in order to get
past the toughest part of my trip. I knew there was a big mall right
next to where I was going, and they were bound to have a food court.
But, surprise, Springfield Mall in Delaware County, PA (with anchor
stores Macy's and Strawbridge's; maybe others), does not have a food
court! I did manage to find something, though, in a very nice Italian
bistro.

Also, malls used to have two book stores, but now with those two big box
stores whose names start with B all over the place, the ones with which
I am familiar are all down to one.

Neshaminy, Plymouth Meeting - Both had Waldenbooks and B. Dalton, now
just have Waldenbooks.
Willow Grove Park - Had Waldenbooks and B. Dalton, now just has B. Dalton.
Oxford Valley - Had Waldenbooks and Paperback Booksmith, now just has
Waldenbooks.
Christiana Mall (Delaware) - Had Waldenbooks and a local store called
McMahon's, now just has Waldenbooks.

Well, Waldenbooks must be doing well because it was the survivor in four
out of the five malls listed.

[Jayfar]

Post by Regina Litman
Well, Waldenbooks must be doing well because it was the survivor in four
out of the five malls listed.

and is owned lock, stock and barrel by Borders by the way.

Cheers,
Jayfar
--

[John David Galt]

Post by Jayfar

Post by Regina Litman
Well, Waldenbooks must be doing well because it was the survivor in four
out of the five malls listed.

and is owned lock, stock and barrel by Borders by the way.

I had the impression that Borders became part of Amazon some time ago. Try
going to www.borders.com and you'll see what I mean.

[Ron Newman]

Post by John David Galt
I had the impression that Borders became part of Amazon some time ago. Try
going to www.borders.com and you'll see what I mean.

Borders has some strange cooperative relationship with Amazon for the
purpose of e-commerce, but otherwise they're still totally different and
unrelated companies.

[Bob B. Soxx]

Post by Ron Newman

Post by John David Galt
I had the impression that Borders became part of Amazon some time
ago. Try going to www.borders.com and you'll see what I mean.

Borders has some strange cooperative relationship with Amazon for the
purpose of e-commerce, but otherwise they're still totally different
and unrelated companies.

Same as Target and Amazon!

[R.J.]

Just to repost about the York Steakhouse. This was not the one in the
now Food Court at Neshaminy. IT was a Hot SHoppes CAfeteria. I used
to eat there alot. I dont remember any York Steakhouse in Neshaminy.
MAybe they were similar, but I just read about another person
confirming my hunch about the Hot SHoppe Cafeteria in Neshaminy in
another Newsgroup.

Ray

"

Post by Bob B. Soxx

Post by Ron Newman

Post by John David Galt
I had the impression that Borders became part of Amazon some time
ago. Try going to www.borders.com and you'll see what I mean.

Borders has some strange cooperative relationship with Amazon for the
purpose of e-commerce, but otherwise they're still totally different
and unrelated companies.

Same as Target and Amazon!

[Regina Litman]

Post by R.J.
Just to repost about the York Steakhouse. This was not the one in the
now Food Court at Neshaminy. IT was a Hot SHoppes CAfeteria. I used
to eat there alot. I dont remember any York Steakhouse in Neshaminy.
MAybe they were similar, but I just read about another person
confirming my hunch about the Hot SHoppe Cafeteria in Neshaminy in
another Newsgroup.

Since my knowledge of Neshaminy Mall before October 1989 (when the food
court had just opened) is sketchy at best, I will defer to your knowledge.

Many of the malls in the Washington, DC, area had Hot Shoppes Cafeterias
in the era before food courts. (And in the cases of both Prince George's
Plaza and Wheaton Plazas, these cafeterias were present even before they
became enclosed.) I wonder if other malls in the Philadelphia area had
them, too. I know that there were sit down Hot Shoppes in the
Philadelphia area. When I first visited the suburban area that would
eventually become my home on Memorial Day weekend in 1979, I ate
breakfast one day at what I think was the last sit-down Hot Shoppes in
the metropolitan area to close. It was on Old York Road (Route 611) in
the Jenkintown/Abington area. It closed not too long after that. A car
dealership was built on that spot, but eventually that closed, and now
there's a Barnes & Noble store there.

The one other sit-down Hot Shoppes location I know of in the
Philadelphia area was further south on Route 611 from the one I visited
in North Philadelphia on North Broad Street. It's now a Post Office. I
know from reminscing mentions of it in Clark DeLeon's old Philadelphia
Inquirer Scene column that there was a Bryn Mawr Hot Shoppes, but no one
has ever been able to pinpoint its location for me. I wondered if it had
been the restaurant in neighboring Haverford that was Al E. Gator's,
because that restaurant had a shape reminiscent of a Hot Shoppes to me,
but I've been told that's not where it was. There was also a restaurant
on Welsh Road just east of Roosevelt Blvd. in the late 1980s that looked
like a smaller scale Hot Shoppes (but not small enough to be a Jr. Hot
Shoppes), and I wondered if this had once been a Hot Shoppes, too.

[Charles Perrin]

Post by John David Galt

Post by Jayfar

Post by Regina Litman
Well, Waldenbooks must be doing well because it was the survivor in four
out of the five malls listed.

and is owned lock, stock and barrel by Borders by the way.

I had the impression that Borders became part of Amazon some time ago.
Try going to www.borders.com and you'll see what I mean.

Amazon not only does their own business, but they handle Web sites for
other people.... including Borders (and Waldenbooks), Marshall Fields,
Office Depot, Target, and Toys 'R' Us.

[John David Galt]

Post by Charles Perrin
Amazon not only does their own business, but they handle Web sites for
other people.... including Borders (and Waldenbooks), Marshall Fields,
Office Depot, Target, and Toys 'R' Us.

Maybe so, but there isn't any separate Borders web site. Try to go there
and you wind up at amazon.

[Ron Newman]

Post by John David Galt
Maybe so, but there isn't any separate Borders web site. Try to go there
and you wind up at amazon.

See http://www.BordersStores.com

[Chris Bessert]

Post by Ron Newman

Post by John David Galt
Maybe so, but there isn't any separate Borders web site. Try to go there
and you wind up at amazon.

See http://www.BordersStores.com

That would, indeed, be the website for the Borders stores. If you're
looking for a corporate site for Borders Group, the company that
operates Borders & Waldenbooks, it's http://www.bordersgroupinc.com/ .
Borders Group was formed by Kmart in the 1990s when they brought their
separate Borders and Waldenbooks/Brentanos chains under one corporate
structure. Kmart had first purchased Waldenbooks then a controlling
interest in Borders. Not too long after, when forced to start selling
assets to stay alive, they sold off much of the Borders Group interest
they had. Borders Group is now a publicly traded company.

The "About Us" page at http://www.bordersgroupinc.com/about/index.html
notes the Amazon relationship.

Later,
Chris

[Charles Perrin]

Post by John David Galt

Post by Charles Perrin
Amazon not only does their own business, but they handle Web sites for
other people.... including Borders (and Waldenbooks), Marshall Fields,
Office Depot, Target, and Toys 'R' Us.

Maybe so, but there isn't any separate Borders web site.

Try again. How about:

http://www.bordersgroupinc.com/

which is a corporate Web site.

Interestingly enough, there's also:

http://www.bordersstores.com/

which searches the store inventory... and it is most definitely NOT a
rebranded Amazon.COM!

Post by John David Galt
Try to go there and you wind up at amazon.

To quote from the Borders Group Web site:

"Teamed with Amazon.com, the company also offers online shopping
through www.borders.com and www.waldenbooks.com".

To update an old cliche for the new millenium: "If you can't beat 'em
at their core compentency, team with them."

[Art Clemons]

Post by Charles Perrin
To update an old cliche for the new millenium: "If you can't beat 'em
at their core compentency, team with them."

It does make sense to farm out things that companies aren't good at if
said farming will either improve customer service or reduce costs and
not decrease customer service. Of course, my family has had horrible
luck with amazon, imagine for example four shipments in a row with the
wrong title and supposed customer service insisting that we pay to
return said books. Of course, small claims court dealt with that
little problem, funny how a judgement got not only a refund but an
apology.

[Regina Litman]

Post by Jayfar

Post by Regina Litman
Well, Waldenbooks must be doing well because it was the survivor in four
out of the five malls listed.

and is owned lock, stock and barrel by Borders by the way.

And I am pretty sure that B. Dalton is under the same ownership as
Barnes and Noble.

Which, if true, means that the B. Dalton/Barnes & Noble conglomerate has
THREE stores in the Jenkintown/Abington/Willow Grove area, while the
Borders/Waldenbooks one has none.

Regarding the possible joint ownership of Borders and Amazon, I think
that this is just a marketing agreement situation. Barnes and Noble,
though, runs its own web site.

[Jayfar]

Post by Regina Litman
And I am pretty sure that B. Dalton is under the same ownership as
Barnes and Noble.

Correct:

http://www.barnesandnobleinc.com/company/bnholdings/co_bdalton.html

B&N has also been operating UPenn's bookstore in recent years (and I
believe they've been moving aggressively to cut operating deals with
college bookstores generally).

Cheers,
Jayfar
--

[Regina Litman]

Post by Jayfar

Post by Regina Litman
And I am pretty sure that B. Dalton is under the same ownership as
Barnes and Noble.

http://www.barnesandnobleinc.com/company/bnholdings/co_bdalton.html
B&N has also been operating UPenn's bookstore in recent years (and I
believe they've been moving aggressively to cut operating deals with
college bookstores generally).

Also the bookstore at the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg,
VA, which is strategically situated right where the tourist area ends
and the campus begins, to get business from both places, I'm sure.

And the tiny bookstores on the Penn State campuses in both Great Valley
and Abington. When I went to the Abington campus store (probably less
than a mile as the campus' duck pond's geese fly from the Barnes and
Noble store in Jenkintown) to buy a book for a course I was taking
there, I bought two other interesting-looking books from a very small
collection of general interest items. I asked the cashier if I could use
my Barnes & Noble discount card to pay for the items. He didn't know,
but he called a supervisor located elsewhere to find out. What he found
out was that I could use it on the general interest books but not on the
textbook.

[Gene J. Yao]

Post by Regina Litman
And I am pretty sure that B. Dalton is under the same ownership as
Barnes and Noble.

Yes it is.

Post by Regina Litman
Which, if true, means that the B. Dalton/Barnes & Noble conglomerate has
THREE stores in the Jenkintown/Abington/Willow Grove area, while the
Borders/Waldenbooks one has none.

That's not surprising. I'm betting that Waldenbooks and B. Dalton
are on equal footing but B&N has more stores than Borders. By the
way, is there even a Borders up there? I think the closest one in
that area is the one in Montgomerville (which also has a B&N).
Anyway, Borders is a much smaller chain than B&N. That said, Borders
is more international than B&N, operating stores in the UK, Singapore,
Australia, and New Zealand (but curiously not Canada). B&N is just
U.S. AFAIK. Also what's the deal with Brentano's? I think they're a
bigger name in NYC where they're from (?). However, in Philadelphia
and in DC, where they also operate stores, they're no different than
Waldenbooks. Why didn't the Borders group just fold them into
Waldenbooks? Also, does anyone know if the Doubleday bookstore in
King of Prussia is still open. I iamgien not, now that Borders has
set up shop in that mall.

[Regina Litman]

Post by Gene J. Yao
That's not surprising. I'm betting that Waldenbooks and B. Dalton
are on equal footing but B&N has more stores than Borders. By the
way, is there even a Borders up there? I think the closest one in
that area is the one in Montgomerville (which also has a B&N).
Anyway, Borders is a much smaller chain than B&N. That said, Borders
is more international than B&N, operating stores in the UK, Singapore,
Australia, and New Zealand (but curiously not Canada). B&N is just
U.S. AFAIK. Also what's the deal with Brentano's? I think they're a
bigger name in NYC where they're from (?). However, in Philadelphia
and in DC, where they also operate stores, they're no different than
Waldenbooks. Why didn't the Borders group just fold them into
Waldenbooks? Also, does anyone know if the Doubleday bookstore in
King of Prussia is still open. I iamgien not, now that Borders has
set up shop in that mall.

...

Probably the closest Borders to the southern portion of the suburban
Route 611 corridor (between the city line at Cheltenham Avenua and the
PA Turnpike) is the one in Chestnut Hill. (I haven't been that way in
awhile, so I don't know if it's still in existence.) It used to be
another bookstore whose names started with "B", but Borders bought up
this chain, including local stores in Chestnut Hill and Delaware County.
This Borders does not have much convenient parking, and it does not have
a music department. (The Jenkintown Barnes & Noble also does not have a
music department.) The closest Borders with 6% sales tax that is not a
long distance phone call from the southern portion of the suburban Route
611 corridor is a relatively small one (but still with a music
deparment) in the Oxford Valley area, which is dwarfed by a huge Barnes
& Noble a couple of blocks away. (The Montgomeryville one is a long
distance call despite being closer, and the Chestnut Hill one is in
Philadelphia with its 7% tax.)

[Charles Perrin]

Post by Gene J. Yao
Also what's the deal with Brentano's? I think they're a
bigger name in NYC where they're from (?). However, in Philadelphia
and in DC, where they also operate stores, they're no different than
Waldenbooks. Why didn't the Borders group just fold them into
Waldenbooks?

For the same reason GM doesn't fold all their brands into Chevrolet.

[Gene J. Yao]

Post by Charles Perrin
For the same reason GM doesn't fold all their brands into Chevrolet.

But is Brentano's really any different from Waldenbooks?
Perhaps their NYC stores are but their stores outside of NYC strike me
as being just like Waldenbooks.

[Charles Perrin]

Post by Gene J. Yao

Post by Charles Perrin
For the same reason GM doesn't fold all their brands into Chevrolet.

But is Brentano's really any different from Waldenbooks?

Probably no more different than a Chevrolet is from any of its GM
stablemates.