mini-roundabouts in the USA

[Mike Tantillo]

Anyone know of any of these here in this country?

Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).

If so, where are they?

[Marc Fannin]

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

Seems to be one:

Acton Rd. @ Granden Rd., Clintonville neighborhood, Columbus, Ohio,
40.0406N/83.0077W

Google Maps Street View: http://tinyurl.com/ct9e5q or
http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&ll=40.040996,-83.009702&spn=0,359.989057&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.040649,-83.007668&panoid=kekbW8iTdvX4kt8k80JKtw&cbp=12,292.95043058895135,,0,4.470588235294129

Other photos: http://www.roadfan.com/clinton.html

_________________________________________________________________________
Marc Fannin|musxf579 @hotmail.com|http://roadfan.com/ (m.t.r FAQ, etc.)

[Musty]

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

There's one in Dimondale, MI.

Coordinates at 42.202454,-85.590749
Can be seen at http://bit.ly/14hqfE

Brian

[armourereric]

Post by Musty

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

There's one in Dimondale, MI.
Coordinates at 42.202454,-85.590749
Can be seen athttp://bit.ly/14hqfE
Brian

Willow Road between CA 67 and Widcat Canyon Road, there are 3 of them,
put in to discourage traffic bound for Barona Casino, and to encourage
traffic to use Maplewood to Applewood instead.

[Gary V]

Look at Comstock Blvd in Grand Rapids, MI. Two oddities:

At the intersection of Oakwood Ave there's an extremely tiny round
median that was put smack-dab in the middle of the intersection,
without expanding the size of the intersection at all.

At the intersection with Union and Aberdeen, there's a traffic
circle. Comstock makes a right turn at the intersection, and neither
EB nor WB go around the circle - the road just curves around the SW
corner.

[Marc Fannin]

Post by Gary V
At the intersection of Oakwood Ave there's an extremely tiny round
median that was put smack-dab in the middle of the intersection,
without expanding the size of the intersection at all.
At the intersection with Union and Aberdeen, there's a traffic
circle. Comstock makes a right turn at the intersection, and neither
EB nor WB go around the circle - the road just curves around the SW
corner.

The latter seems to be just a traffic island.
Live Local Bird's-Eye: http://tinyurl.com/pm8beg
(http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?
v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=r50y0n7vvwd4&style=o&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=40421190&encType=1)

Moving west, one can clearly see that the other fits the description.

_________________________________________________________________________
Marc Fannin|musxf579 @hotmail.com|http://roadfan.com/ (m.t.r FAQ, etc.)

[Larry Sheldon]

Post by Marc Fannin

Post by Gary V
At the intersection of Oakwood Ave there's an extremely tiny round
median that was put smack-dab in the middle of the intersection,
without expanding the size of the intersection at all.
At the intersection with Union and Aberdeen, there's a traffic
circle. Comstock makes a right turn at the intersection, and neither
EB nor WB go around the circle - the road just curves around the SW
corner.

The latter seems to be just a traffic island.
Live Local Bird's-Eye: http://tinyurl.com/pm8beg
(http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?
v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=r50y0n7vvwd4&style=o&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=40421190&encType=1)
Moving west, one can clearly see that the other fits the description.

The first one looks like this one, wich as I recall, was signed aas a
roundabout:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=bletchley+park,+uk&sll=40.803588,-79.522804&sspn=12.882601,28.564453&ie=UTF8&ll=51.998211,-0.742155&spn=0.00032,0.000872&t=h&z=21
--
Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics
of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Infallibility, and the ability to
learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information:
http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml

[Larry Sheldon]

Post by Larry Sheldon

Post by Marc Fannin

Post by Gary V
At the intersection of Oakwood Ave there's an extremely tiny round
median that was put smack-dab in the middle of the intersection,
without expanding the size of the intersection at all.
At the intersection with Union and Aberdeen, there's a traffic
circle. Comstock makes a right turn at the intersection, and neither
EB nor WB go around the circle - the road just curves around the SW
corner.

The latter seems to be just a traffic island.
Live Local Bird's-Eye: http://tinyurl.com/pm8beg
(http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?
v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=r50y0n7vvwd4&style=o&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=40421190&encType=1)
Moving west, one can clearly see that the other fits the description.

The first one looks like this one, wich as I recall, was signed aas a
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=bletchley+park,+uk&sll=40.803588,-79.522804&sspn=12.882601,28.564453&ie=UTF8&ll=51.998211,-0.742155&spn=0.00032,0.000872&t=h&z=21

And I recall seeing some in England where the street geometry had not
been changed at all, but there was a manhole-sized circle with arrows
painted in it and a sign stick in the middle of it.

And I keep thinking about the possibilities here:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=costco&sll=39.064248,-94.484482&sspn=0.103296,0.22316&ie=UTF8&ll=39.068517,-94.566804&spn=0.001614,0.003487&t=h&z=19
--
Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics
of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Infallibility, and the ability to
learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information:
http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml

[Wally Sevits]

Post by Musty

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

There's one in Dimondale, MI.
Coordinates at 42.202454,-85.590749
Can be seen at http://bit.ly/14hqfE

I looked at this, because I know where Dimondale is. Widening the view
a little caused me a good deal of puzzlement, though. Here's the
story. In the early 70's, I lived in Okemos at Hagadorn & Mount Hope.
Some friends of mine lived in the trailer park on Canal Rd just south
of M-78 (now apparently called Lansing Rd.) I had an anemic 90cc
motorcycle and when I rode over to see them, I went via the boonies
south of town. My recollection of the route was 1.) south on Mount
Hope to Holt Rd. 2.) west on Holt Rd. to Canal Rd. 3.) north on Canal
to the park entrance. Looking at the map today, that is not possible.
Holt Rd. veers northwest and never intersects Canal. Instead, Holt
becomes Washington St., then you would go left at Bridge St. across a
river, then right on Jefferson after the bridge, which becomes Windsor
Highway. That road, Windsor Hwy, intersects Canal where you would go
north.

So am I misremembering this big time? Has progress over nearly 40
years rewritten the map in that vicinity? There don't appear to be
ghost roads between the point where Holt road departs from its E/W
alignment (along a section line no doubt), and west of Canal there is
a road along the same line as well. I made this trip dozens of times
and I cannot recall all those turns. Do you have any idea whether it
was once as I recall? (ISTR also that Creyts Rd was sometimes spelled
Kreitz)

[o u t e n d]

Post by Wally Sevits

Post by Musty

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

There's one in Dimondale, MI.
Coordinates at 42.202454,-85.590749
Can be seen at http://bit.ly/14hqfE

I looked at this, because I know where Dimondale is. Widening the view
a little caused me a good deal of puzzlement, though. Here's the
story. In the early 70's, I lived in Okemos at Hagadorn & Mount Hope.
Some friends of mine lived in the trailer park on Canal Rd just south
of M-78 (now apparently called Lansing Rd.) I had an anemic 90cc
motorcycle and when I rode over to see them, I went via the boonies
south of town. My recollection of the route was 1.) south on Mount
Hope to Holt Rd. 2.) west on Holt Rd. to Canal Rd. 3.) north on Canal
to the park entrance. Looking at the map today, that is not possible.
Holt Rd. veers northwest and never intersects Canal. Instead, Holt
becomes Washington St., then you would go left at Bridge St. across a
river, then right on Jefferson after the bridge, which becomes Windsor
Highway. That road, Windsor Hwy, intersects Canal where you would go
north.
So am I misremembering this big time? Has progress over nearly 40
years rewritten the map in that vicinity? There don't appear to be
ghost roads between the point where Holt road departs from its E/W
alignment (along a section line no doubt), and west of Canal there is
a road along the same line as well. I made this trip dozens of times
and I cannot recall all those turns. Do you have any idea whether it
was once as I recall? (ISTR also that Creyts Rd was sometimes spelled
Kreitz)

The topo map on teraserver dating from 1980 shows the main road alignments
as they exist today with no evidence of abandoned roads.

[David D Miller]

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).

3.65-5.5 metres? I would describe those as small roundabouts.

"A mini-roundabout has a central circular solid
white road marking, which is flush with the road
surface or slightly domed, instead of the central
island found on conventional roundabouts. The marking
is between one and four metres in diameter."
http://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/dmrb/vol6/section2/td5407.pdf

So, are there any UK-style mini roundabouts in North America?

[Froggie]

Post by Mike Tantillo
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).

3.65-5.5 metres?  I would describe those as small roundabouts.
"A mini-roundabout has a central circular solid
white road marking, which is flush with the road
surface or slightly domed, instead of the central
island found on conventional roundabouts. The marking
is between one and four metres in diameter.
"http://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/dmrb/vol6/section2/td5407.pdf
So, are there any UK-style mini roundabouts in North America?

One potential candidate that would meet David's narrow width criteria
is where the ramps from eastbound US 50/US 301 meet Thompson Creek Rd
(Exit 38A), just east of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. Although I've
never driven through it myself (just seen it passing by on 50/301) and
the aerial images don't show it, it's signed as a roundabout.

It's also close enough to D.C. where Mike could possibly field-check
it himself.

Froggie | Alexandria, VA | http://www.ajfroggie.com/roads/

[Scott M. Kozel]

Post by Froggie

Post by David D Miller
So, are there any UK-style mini roundabouts in North America?

One potential candidate that would meet David's narrow width criteria
is where the ramps from eastbound US 50/US 301 meet Thompson Creek Rd
(Exit 38A), just east of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. Although I've
never driven through it myself (just seen it passing by on 50/301) and
the aerial images don't show it, it's signed as a roundabout.

I have driven it at least several times ... it is a roundabout.

[Andrew Tompkins]

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

In Beaverton, OR, Silverado & Blueridge (the subdivision behind my
apartment community):
http://tinyurl.com/cyes8x
or
http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&t=k&layer=c&cbll=45.523034,-122.843998&panoid=k5Jb8EEFgGZARZKEN_YS9Q&cbp=12,287.05,,0,5&ll=45.523033,-122.844111&spn=0,359.994249&z=18

--Andy

[Pete]

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

I don't suppose this counts:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=medford+ma&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&split=0&gl=us&ei=ti0DStuwBKGNtgeKsYD_Bg&ll=42.421205,-71.11782&spn=0.00084,0.001727&t=h&z=19

[Rich Piehl]

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

The 12 to 18 feet - are you talking ID, OD or on center?

Take care,
Rich

God bless the USA

[Premier Bush]

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

I saw a tiny one in the Tulsa area the other day, can't remember exactly
where it was. It might not have even been that big.

[Paul D. DeRocco]

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

We have them here and there, primarily in gridded residential neighborhoods
for "traffic calming", a.k.a., "driver enraging". Here's one in Santa
Monica/Brentwood, CA:

http://tinyurl.com/pdq3q3

I recall not that long ago driving through an irritating neighborhood that
had a series of them, but I can't remember where.

[Larry Sheldon]

Post by Paul D. DeRocco

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

We have them here and there, primarily in gridded residential neighborhoods
for "traffic calming", a.k.a., "driver enraging". Here's one in Santa
http://tinyurl.com/pdq3q3
I recall not that long ago driving through an irritating neighborhood that
had a series of them, but I can't remember where.

We have a few that are close to "mini: around here.

The big problem is the reversed mentality around here (turn left, right,
or continue straight ahead on red lights, stay stopped (if you did) on
green, do not under any circumstances stop at a STOP sign, stop at a
yield sign (and refuse to move if you can see a car anywhere).

My favorite collection of roundabouts is in Milton Keynes in England.


http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=milton+keynes&sll=34.038785,-118.480712&sspn=0.001723,0.003487&ie=UTF8&ll=52.034383,-0.700035&spn=0.020461,0.05579&t=h&z=15
--
Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics
of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Infallibility, and the ability to
learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information:
http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml

[Arif Khokar]

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
We have them here and there, primarily in gridded residential neighborhoods
for "traffic calming", a.k.a., "driver enraging". Here's one in Santa
http://tinyurl.com/pdq3q3

So you're saying that it's irritating that you have to only possibly
slow down for each intersection when there's no cross traffic rather
than have to come to a full stop regardless?

I find 4-way stop signs far more irritating, especially when there's no
other traffic around.

[John David Galt]

Post by Arif Khokar

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
We have them here and there, primarily in gridded residential
neighborhoods for "traffic calming", a.k.a., "driver enraging". Here's
http://tinyurl.com/pdq3q3

So you're saying that it's irritating that you have to only possibly
slow down for each intersection when there's no cross traffic rather
than have to come to a full stop regardless?

Make that "always" slow down, AND swerve from your straight path.

A momentary stop is much less trouble, and gives time for the looking
both ways that we should be doing anyway. Roundabouts make that more
difficult, too (because you CAN'T assume other drivers will follow the
rules at one -- roundabouts simply aren't normal).

[Arif Khokar]

Post by John David Galt

Post by Arif Khokar
So you're saying that it's irritating that you have to only possibly
slow down for each intersection when there's no cross traffic rather
than have to come to a full stop regardless?

Make that "always" slow down, AND swerve from your straight path.

No, unless you're going significantly more than 25 mph, you don't have
to really slow down at all (maybe down to 20 mph which can be
accomplished without having to use the brakes).

Post by John David Galt
A momentary stop is much less trouble,

It's more time consuming, puts more wear and tear on the brakes, wastes
more gas and simply isn't necessary 99.9% of the time due to low traffic
volumes.

Post by John David Galt
and gives time for the looking both ways that we should be doing
anyway.

You don't have to look both ways when entering a roundabout. You only
have to look to the left (though you should be aware of pedestrians who
are about to cross if there are any).

Post by John David Galt
Roundabouts make that more difficult, too (because you CAN'T assume
other drivers will follow the rules at one

There's only one rule. That is to yield to traffic entering a
roundabout prior to entering.

At a 4 way stop, you have to come to a full stop and yield to traffic
coming from the right (which is counterintuitive in itself) if they get
to the intersection at the same time. Then in the situation where one
vehicle needs to make a left turn in front of the other (when
approaching the intersection from opposite directions), the ROW rules
are ambiguous. Do you wait for the left-turning driver if he gets to
the intersection a fraction of a second before you or do you proceed at
the same time and hope that he yields to you?


Also, you can't assume that drivers will stop at a stop sign and if they
don't, they'll broadside your vehicle. In a properly designed
roundabout, it's quite difficult to enter the wrong way and drivers to
fail to yield really aren't much of a problem.

Post by John David Galt
-- roundabouts simply aren't normal).

They are far more intuitive. I simply don't see why it's necessary to
require one to come to a full stop when there's no need to do so. FYI,
that's one reason why many people end up treating stop signs like yield
signs.

Stop signs should only be used for a "minor" roadway that intersects a
major roadway and where the visibility of the intersection is limited.
If both roadways have equal priority (by traffic counts, size, etc.)
then a roundabout is far better than either a 4-way, 2-way or traffic
light controlled intersection (up to a certain VPD).

[Scott in SoCal]

Post by Arif Khokar
No, unless you're going significantly more than 25 mph, you don't have
to really slow down at all (maybe down to 20 mph which can be
accomplished without having to use the brakes).

You've obviously never had to drive through one of these "retrofit
roundabouts." They are designed to be as claustrophobic as possible.
After all, their sole purpose is to make drivers slow down. If they
were nice and wide, people would just charge through without slowing,
defeating their primary purpose.

[Arif Khokar]

Post by Scott in SoCal

Post by Arif Khokar
No, unless you're going significantly more than 25 mph, you don't have
to really slow down at all (maybe down to 20 mph which can be
accomplished without having to use the brakes).

You've obviously never had to drive through one of these "retrofit
roundabouts."

Here's a roundabout I either drive through or ride through on a frequent
basis. It looks to be about the same size as the one Paul linked to
earlier in the thread. I know for a fact that you can go through it at
20 mph without too much difficulty.

Post by Scott in SoCal
They are designed to be as claustrophobic as possible.

Unless there are 6 foot high jersey barriers on both sides of the
vehicle, I cannot possibly see how they could be considered claustrophobic.

Post by Scott in SoCal
After all, their sole purpose is to make drivers slow down.

Is there a reason why one shouldn't slow down a bit when traversing an
intersection? I'm assuming normal traffic speeds in those neighborhoods
top out at 35 mph. Slowing down to 20 mph by letting up on the gas for
5 seconds isn't that big of a deal. It certainly beats having to slow
down to 0 mph for a stop sign or red light.

[Arif Khokar]

Post by Arif Khokar
Here's a roundabout I either drive through or ride through on a frequent
basis.

Sorry, forgot to post the link: <http://tinyurl.com/qkajrq>

[Scott in SoCal]

Post by Arif Khokar

Post by Arif Khokar
Here's a roundabout I either drive through or ride through on a frequent
basis.

Sorry, forgot to post the link: <http://tinyurl.com/qkajrq>

That doesn't look like a retrofit to me - it looks purpose-built. The
entire intersection is circular, not square.

The retrofits started out as regular square intersections. Later,
after residents complained about cars speeding through their
neighborhood, someone installed an island in the middle of the
intersection, leaving just enough room at the widest point for a
vehicle to pass but without altering the original shape of the
intersection. The resulting "roundabout" is a circle set within a
square - as if a tornado dropped a planter or a fountain down in the
middle of a regular intersection. It's more of an obstruction than
anything else. Which is, of course, its purpose.

[Floyd Rogers]

Post by Scott in SoCal

Post by Arif Khokar

Post by Arif Khokar
Here's a roundabout I either drive through or ride through on a frequent
basis.

Sorry, forgot to post the link: <http://tinyurl.com/qkajrq>

That doesn't look like a retrofit to me - it looks purpose-built. The
entire intersection is circular, not square.
The retrofits started out as regular square intersections. Later,
after residents complained about cars speeding through their
neighborhood, someone installed an island in the middle of the
intersection, leaving just enough room at the widest point for a
vehicle to pass but without altering the original shape of the
intersection. The resulting "roundabout" is a circle set within a
square - as if a tornado dropped a planter or a fountain down in the
middle of a regular intersection. It's more of an obstruction than
anything else. Which is, of course, its purpose.

Like this in Seattle:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=seattle,+wa&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=51.887315,57.128906&ie=UTF8&ll=47.650523,-122.343991&spn=0.001317,0.002763&t=k&z=19

FloydR

[Paul S Wolf]

Post by Floyd Rogers

Post by Scott in SoCal

Post by Arif Khokar

Post by Arif Khokar
Here's a roundabout I either drive through or ride through on a frequent
basis.

Sorry, forgot to post the link: <http://tinyurl.com/qkajrq>

That doesn't look like a retrofit to me - it looks purpose-built. The
entire intersection is circular, not square.
The retrofits started out as regular square intersections. Later,
after residents complained about cars speeding through their
neighborhood, someone installed an island in the middle of the
intersection, leaving just enough room at the widest point for a
vehicle to pass but without altering the original shape of the
intersection. The resulting "roundabout" is a circle set within a
square - as if a tornado dropped a planter or a fountain down in the
middle of a regular intersection. It's more of an obstruction than
anything else. Which is, of course, its purpose.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=seattle,+wa&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=51.887315,57.128906&ie=UTF8&ll=47.650523,-122.343991&spn=0.001317,0.002763&t=k&z=19
FloydR

That's NOT a roundabout. It's atraffic calming island plopped down in
an intersection.

A roundabout has specific design criteria that must be followed. The
elements that constitute a roundabout are:

* Yielded entry – cars entering must wait for a gap in the
circulating traffic before entering the roundabout
* Islands separate the entry from the circular roadway
* Designated crossing area for pedestrians
* Designed to be driven at speeds of 15 – 20 miles per hour
* Single or multiple lanes

Roundabouts also differ from traffic calming islands in several ways.
These small traffic circles are often used to slow traffic speeds in
residential neighborhoods and reduce accidents. In addition, the raised
center islands are not designed to accommodate large vehicles and
left-turning traffic, which often take the turn in front of the circles.

HERE are some true roundabouts:

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/roundabouts/

Loading Image...

[Paul D. DeRocco]

That's NOT a roundabout. It's atraffic calming island plopped down in an
intersection.
A roundabout has specific design criteria that must be followed. The
* Yielded entry – cars entering must wait for a gap in the circulating
traffic before entering the roundabout
* Islands separate the entry from the circular roadway
* Designated crossing area for pedestrians
* Designed to be driven at speeds of 15 – 20 miles per hour
* Single or multiple lanes
Roundabouts also differ from traffic calming islands in several ways.
These small traffic circles are often used to slow traffic speeds in
residential neighborhoods and reduce accidents. In addition, the raised
center islands are not designed to accommodate large vehicles and
left-turning traffic, which often take the turn in front of the circles.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/roundabouts/
http://www.dot.state.mn.us/roundabouts/images/roundabout_design2.gif

That implies that a traffic calming island still gives the driver on the
right the right-of-way, unlike a true roundabout. So how does one know if
the round thingy in front of you is considered a roundabout or a traffic
calming island? It can't be based on the presence of a yield sign, or a
splitter island, because I can think of examples that don't have either,
such as this series of actual roundabouts in Brentwood, Los Angeles, CA:

http://tinyurl.com/pytn2g

So the distinction must be based on size, which implies a boundary condition
which isn't spelled out.

[Paul S Wolf]

Post by Paul D. DeRocco

roundabout. It's atraffic calming island plopped down in an
intersection.
A roundabout has specific design criteria that must be followed.
* Yielded entry – cars entering must wait for a gap in the
circulating traffic before entering the roundabout * Islands
separate the entry from the circular roadway * Designated crossing
area for pedestrians * Designed to be driven at speeds of 15 – 20
miles per hour * Single or multiple lanes
Roundabouts also differ from traffic calming islands in several
ways. These small traffic circles are often used to slow traffic
speeds in residential neighborhoods and reduce accidents. In
addition, the raised center islands are not designed to accommodate
large vehicles and left-turning traffic, which often take the turn
in front of the circles.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/roundabouts/
http://www.dot.state.mn.us/roundabouts/images/roundabout_design2.gif

That implies that a traffic calming island still gives the driver on
the right the right-of-way, unlike a true roundabout. So how does one
know if the round thingy in front of you is considered a roundabout
or a traffic calming island? It can't be based on the presence of a
yield sign, or a splitter island, because I can think of examples
that don't have either, such as this series of actual roundabouts in
http://tinyurl.com/pytn2g

Those are poorly designed, and should have the other features added. As
it is, they seem to be uncontrolled. I wouldn't know who has the
right-of-way if two vehicles arrive simultaneously.

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
So the distinction must be based on size, which implies a boundary
condition which isn't spelled out.

NO, a true mini-roundabout can have a flush center "island" 5 feet in
diameter or less. For example, this one in Dimondale, MI:
Loading Image...

[Scott in SoCal]

Post by Paul S Wolf

Post by Floyd Rogers

Post by Scott in SoCal

Post by Arif Khokar

Post by Arif Khokar
Here's a roundabout I either drive through or ride through on a frequent
basis.

Sorry, forgot to post the link: <http://tinyurl.com/qkajrq>

That doesn't look like a retrofit to me - it looks purpose-built. The
entire intersection is circular, not square.
The retrofits started out as regular square intersections. Later,
after residents complained about cars speeding through their
neighborhood, someone installed an island in the middle of the
intersection, leaving just enough room at the widest point for a
vehicle to pass but without altering the original shape of the
intersection. The resulting "roundabout" is a circle set within a
square - as if a tornado dropped a planter or a fountain down in the
middle of a regular intersection. It's more of an obstruction than
anything else. Which is, of course, its purpose.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=seattle,+wa&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=51.887315,57.128906&ie=UTF8&ll=47.650523,-122.343991&spn=0.001317,0.002763&t=k&z=19
FloydR

That's NOT a roundabout.

Hence my use of double quotation marks around the word.

[Pete Jenior]

Post by Floyd Rogers

Post by Scott in SoCal

Post by Arif Khokar

Post by Arif Khokar
Here's a roundabout I either drive through or ride through on a frequent
basis.

Sorry, forgot to post the link: <http://tinyurl.com/qkajrq>

That doesn't look like a retrofit to me - it looks purpose-built. The
entire intersection is circular, not square.
The retrofits started out as regular square intersections. Later,
after residents complained about cars speeding through their
neighborhood, someone installed an island in the middle of the
intersection, leaving just enough room at the widest point for a
vehicle to pass but without altering the original shape of the
intersection. The resulting "roundabout" is a circle set within a
square - as if a tornado dropped a planter or a fountain down in the
middle of a regular intersection. It's more of an obstruction than
anything else. Which is, of course, its purpose.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=seattle,+wa&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=51.887315,57.128906&ie=UTF8&ll=47.650523,-122.343991&spn=0.001317,0.002763&t=k&z=19

This looks horrible.

Pete

[Arif Khokar]

Post by Scott in SoCal

Post by Arif Khokar
Sorry, forgot to post the link: <http://tinyurl.com/qkajrq>

That doesn't look like a retrofit to me - it looks purpose-built. The
entire intersection is circular, not square.
The retrofits started out as regular square intersections. Later,
after residents complained about cars speeding through their
neighborhood, someone installed an island in the middle of the
intersection, leaving just enough room at the widest point for a
vehicle to pass but without altering the original shape of the
intersection. The resulting "roundabout" is a circle set within a
square - as if a tornado dropped a planter or a fountain down in the
middle of a regular intersection. It's more of an obstruction than
anything else. Which is, of course, its purpose.

Ok, after looking at the image Floyd posted, I see what you mean. In
that case, it's not really a roundabout; it's nothing more than an
obstruction and safety hazard. But, looking again at the image that
Paul linked to upthread, it looks like his example and my example are
pretty much the same (in that both are actual roundabouts). One
difference is the presence of "splitter islands" for the real roundabout
intersections (which are missing in Floyd's example).

[MLOM]

Post by Scott in SoCal

Post by Arif Khokar

Post by Arif Khokar
Here's a roundabout I either drive through or ride through on a frequent
basis.

Sorry, forgot to post the link: <http://tinyurl.com/qkajrq>

That doesn't look like a retrofit to me - it looks purpose-built. The
entire intersection is circular, not square.
The retrofits started out as regular square intersections. Later,
after residents complained about cars speeding through their
neighborhood, someone installed an island in the middle of the
intersection, leaving just enough room at the widest point for a
vehicle to pass but without altering the original shape of the
intersection. The resulting "roundabout" is a circle set within a
square - as if a tornado dropped a planter or a fountain down in the
middle of a regular intersection. It's more of an obstruction than
anything else. Which is, of course, its purpose.

I'm seeing a ton of them done on state highways in the KC area. Most
of them have such a tight turning radius as to have posted advisory of
15mph. They look way too tight for any vehicle larger than a Jeep.
I'd hate to be operating a delivery or emergency vehicle in those
areas, and I bet school bus drivers have high pucker factors as well
(I've seen the mini-donuts near schools).

There are three on MO 58 west of Scott Street in Belton, two on MO 92
in Smithville just east of US 169, and three on Longview Road in
Kansas City (two at the new C/D lanes along US 71 and one at Hickman
Mills Drive). None of these are 20th-century vintage.

These seem to be of the same mentality as that behind unsynchronized
traffic lights, RLCs and cycling lights at 2AM: the idea that traffic
control means keeping traffic constantly either stopped or crawling.
Then the politicians scratch their heads over elevated air pollutant
levels.

The best usage of a traffic circle in KC has to be Meyer Circle (Ward
Parkway at Meyer Boulevard). Through traffic on Ward has 3 lanes each
way through the circle and only has to slow to about 30 (zone is 35).
Then again, the intersection is likely 20+ years older than me. :)

[Scott in SoCal]

Post by Arif Khokar

Post by Scott in SoCal

Post by Arif Khokar
No, unless you're going significantly more than 25 mph, you don't have
to really slow down at all (maybe down to 20 mph which can be
accomplished without having to use the brakes).

You've obviously never had to drive through one of these "retrofit
roundabouts."

Here's a roundabout I either drive through or ride through on a frequent
basis.

Where? You forgot the URL.

Post by Arif Khokar

Post by Scott in SoCal
They are designed to be as claustrophobic as possible.

Unless there are 6 foot high jersey barriers on both sides of the
vehicle, I cannot possibly see how they could be considered claustrophobic.

One tactic they use is to put planters, fountains, and other
obstructions in the center to block drivers' sightlines. The amount of
pavement you can actually drive on is also made as narrow as possible.
The net effect is a significantly "closed-in" feeling.

Post by Arif Khokar

Post by Scott in SoCal
After all, their sole purpose is to make drivers slow down.

Is there a reason why one shouldn't slow down a bit when traversing an
intersection?

How did we get from "you really don't have to slow down at all" to
this?

If there are clear sightlines in all directions and no traffic nearby
then no, I see no need to slow down at all.

[Arif Khokar]

Post by Scott in SoCal
One tactic they use is to put planters, fountains, and other
obstructions in the center to block drivers' sightlines. The amount of
pavement you can actually drive on is also made as narrow as possible.
The net effect is a significantly "closed-in" feeling.

That actually make the intersection more dangerous than it was before
(especially if those obstructions hide pedestrians from the drivers' view).

Post by Scott in SoCal

Post by Arif Khokar

Post by Scott in SoCal
After all, their sole purpose is to make drivers slow down.

Is there a reason why one shouldn't slow down a bit when traversing an
intersection?

How did we get from "you really don't have to slow down at all" to
this?

What I meant was slowing down from 25 to 20 mph. I don't consider that
slowing significantly. But I now understand what you're referring to
given the other post you made.

Post by Scott in SoCal
If there are clear sightlines in all directions and no traffic nearby
then no, I see no need to slow down at all.

Depending on the radius of the roundabout, you don't really have to.
One with a slightly larger radius could easily be negotiated at say 30 mph.

[Scott in SoCal]

Post by Arif Khokar

Post by Scott in SoCal
One tactic they use is to put planters, fountains, and other
obstructions in the center to block drivers' sightlines. The amount of
pavement you can actually drive on is also made as narrow as possible.
The net effect is a significantly "closed-in" feeling.

That actually make the intersection more dangerous than it was before
(especially if those obstructions hide pedestrians from the drivers' view).

Ah, but residents badger their officials to put those things in to
force traffic to slow down so that their precious little darlings can
play in the street. Wouldn't it be ironic if little Bobby or Suzy got
run over because one of these monstrosities blocked a driver's view?

Post by Arif Khokar

Post by Scott in SoCal
If there are clear sightlines in all directions and no traffic nearby
then no, I see no need to slow down at all.

Depending on the radius of the roundabout, you don't really have to.
One with a slightly larger radius could easily be negotiated at say 30 mph.

Of course, they never increase the radius - that would cost too much
and wouldn't have the desired slowing effect.

[Pete Jenior]

Post by Arif Khokar

One tactic they use is to put planters, fountains, and other obstructions
in the center to block drivers' sightlines. The amount of pavement you
can actually drive on is also made as narrow as possible. The net effect
is a significantly "closed-in" feeling.

That actually make the intersection more dangerous than it was before
(especially if those obstructions hide pedestrians from the drivers' view).

Post by Arif Khokar

Post by Scott in SoCal
After all, their sole purpose is to make drivers slow down.

Is there a reason why one shouldn't slow down a bit when traversing an
intersection?

How did we get from "you really don't have to slow down at all" to this?

What I meant was slowing down from 25 to 20 mph. I don't consider that
slowing significantly. But I now understand what you're referring to
given the other post you made.

If there are clear sightlines in all directions and no traffic nearby
then no, I see no need to slow down at all.

Depending on the radius of the roundabout, you don't really have to. One
with a slightly larger radius could easily be negotiated at say 30 mph.

A roundabout should never be designed to let you pass through at more than
30 mph. This is according to the FHWA roundabout guidebook. One of the
downfalls of older traffic circles is that they were too large and speeds
were too high.

Pete

[Pete Jenior]

Post by Scott in SoCal

Post by Arif Khokar
No, unless you're going significantly more than 25 mph, you don't have
to really slow down at all (maybe down to 20 mph which can be
accomplished without having to use the brakes).

You've obviously never had to drive through one of these "retrofit
roundabouts." They are designed to be as claustrophobic as possible.
After all, their sole purpose is to make drivers slow down.

Not really. If the alternative wouls have been a stop sign, then everyone
would have to slow down a lot more (to 0 mph)

Pete

[Scott in SoCal]

Post by Pete Jenior

Post by Scott in SoCal

Post by Arif Khokar
No, unless you're going significantly more than 25 mph, you don't have
to really slow down at all (maybe down to 20 mph which can be
accomplished without having to use the brakes).

You've obviously never had to drive through one of these "retrofit
roundabouts." They are designed to be as claustrophobic as possible.
After all, their sole purpose is to make drivers slow down.

Not really. If the alternative wouls have been a stop sign, then everyone
would have to slow down a lot more (to 0 mph)

In most cases, these retrofits get plunked down in the middle of
uncontrolled intersections, not 4-way stops. They interrupt what would
otherwise be a several-block-long straight shot down a residential
street. But yes, it is better than having a 4-way stop installed as a
traffic calming measure.

[John Lansford]

Post by John David Galt

Post by Arif Khokar

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
We have them here and there, primarily in gridded residential
neighborhoods for "traffic calming", a.k.a., "driver enraging". Here's
http://tinyurl.com/pdq3q3

So you're saying that it's irritating that you have to only possibly
slow down for each intersection when there's no cross traffic rather
than have to come to a full stop regardless?

Make that "always" slow down, AND swerve from your straight path.
A momentary stop is much less trouble, and gives time for the looking
both ways that we should be doing anyway. Roundabouts make that more
difficult, too (because you CAN'T assume other drivers will follow the
rules at one -- roundabouts simply aren't normal).

Well, boo hoo for drivers who are too ignorant to know what to do at a
roundabout. It's not like the US doesn't have any; roundabouts have
been used here for many years now. As for having to "always slow
down" and not follow your precious straight path, big deal; a four way
stop is THE worst type of traffic control device you can have. It
makes everyone stop whether you need to or not, it breeds driver
complacency, and does nothing to slow speeders down on residential
roads.

Roundabouts impose a very slight delay in motorists' travel, but it's
well worth it for the safety aspects.

John Lansford, PE
--
John's Shop of Wood
http://wood.jlansford.net/

[Scott in SoCal]

Post by Arif Khokar

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
We have them here and there, primarily in gridded residential neighborhoods
for "traffic calming", a.k.a., "driver enraging". Here's one in Santa
http://tinyurl.com/pdq3q3

So you're saying that it's irritating that you have to only possibly
slow down for each intersection when there's no cross traffic rather
than have to come to a full stop regardless?

The "traffic calming" ones that Paul is talking about typically
replace uncontrolled intersections. Thus, he is complaining about
having to slow down regardless whereas before he could proceed through
the intersection at a full 25 MPH if there was no cross-traffic.

Which is, of course, why they were installed: to slow people down in
residential neighborhoods.

[Arif Khokar]

Post by Scott in SoCal

Post by Arif Khokar
So you're saying that it's irritating that you have to only possibly
slow down for each intersection when there's no cross traffic rather
than have to come to a full stop regardless?

The "traffic calming" ones that Paul is talking about typically
replace uncontrolled intersections. Thus, he is complaining about
having to slow down regardless whereas before he could proceed through
the intersection at a full 25 MPH if there was no cross-traffic.

Except for the problem of someone approaching at a right angle also
thinking that the intersection is clear. With a roundabout, you only
have to worry about traffic coming from your left before entering the
intersection. At an uncontrolled intersection, you have to worry about
cross traffic as well as traffic in the opposite direction turning in
front of you.

[Paul D. DeRocco]

Post by Arif Khokar
Except for the problem of someone approaching at a right angle also
thinking that the intersection is clear. With a roundabout, you only have
to worry about traffic coming from your left before entering the
intersection. At an uncontrolled intersection, you have to worry about
cross traffic as well as traffic in the opposite direction turning in
front of you.

The particular circle I mentioned is in an intersection where one road is
much more major and heavily traveled than the other, and would have had (and
probably used to have) a two-way stop sign on the lesser road.

Another common use of small roundabouts is in diamond freeway ramps, often
to interface to frontage roads. Here's an example from Vail, CO:

http://tinyurl.com/o6clan

They've just installed one of these at the Hasley Canyon Road exit off I-5
in Castaic, CA. However, these, too, are still somewhat bigger than the 18ft
mentioned in the original post.

There some that look to be about 20ft in diameter in southeast Porland, OR,
along Clinton St. Here's one at 27th St.:

http://tinyurl.com/r4c2a9

There are more further east, at 31st, 36th and 47th.

One problem I see with really tiny roundabouts is that they feel too much
like regular intersections, yet they have the opposite right-of-way rule.
You're used to assuming you have the ROW if you're on the right, but the
presence of a tiny island in the middle of the intersection changes that, so
you had better notice that you're not in a regular intersection.

[Paul S Wolf]

Post by Paul D. DeRocco

Post by Arif Khokar
Except for the problem of someone approaching at a right angle also
thinking that the intersection is clear. With a roundabout, you only have
to worry about traffic coming from your left before entering the
intersection. At an uncontrolled intersection, you have to worry about
cross traffic as well as traffic in the opposite direction turning in
front of you.

The particular circle I mentioned is in an intersection where one road is
much more major and heavily traveled than the other, and would have had (and
probably used to have) a two-way stop sign on the lesser road.
Another common use of small roundabouts is in diamond freeway ramps, often
http://tinyurl.com/o6clan
They've just installed one of these at the Hasley Canyon Road exit off I-5
in Castaic, CA. However, these, too, are still somewhat bigger than the 18ft
mentioned in the original post.
There some that look to be about 20ft in diameter in southeast Porland, OR,
http://tinyurl.com/r4c2a9

That one is NOT a roundabout either. 23rd Street has STOP Signs.
Clinton has the Right-of-way and does not have to yield or stop.

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
There are more further east, at 31st, 36th and 47th.

These are the same. They are just intersections with traffic calming
islands in the middle. Traffic entering a Roundabout always YIELDS (on
EVERY approach) to traffic in the roundabout.

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
One problem I see with really tiny roundabouts is that they feel too much
like regular intersections, yet they have the opposite right-of-way rule.
You're used to assuming you have the ROW if you're on the right, but the
presence of a tiny island in the middle of the intersection changes that, so
you had better notice that you're not in a regular intersection.

[Larry Sheldon]

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
One problem I see with really tiny roundabouts is that they feel too
much like regular intersections, yet they have the opposite
right-of-way rule. You're used to assuming you have the ROW if you're
on the right, but the presence of a tiny island in the middle of the
intersection changes that, so you had better notice that you're not in
a regular intersection.

I'm confused. All of the right-on-the-right rules I know of involve
determining who gets to go when two or more have stopped.

I am not aware of any that apply if nobody is obligated (aside from a
desire to live) to stop.

Can somebody point me to one?
--
Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics
of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Infallibility, and the ability to
learn from their mistakes.
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information:
http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml

[Paul D. DeRocco]

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
http://tinyurl.com/r4c2a9

That one is NOT a roundabout either. 23rd Street has STOP Signs. Clinton
has the Right-of-way and does not have to yield or stop.

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
There are more further east, at 31st, 36th and 47th.

These are the same. They are just intersections with traffic calming
islands in the middle. Traffic entering a Roundabout always YIELDS (on
EVERY approach) to traffic in the roundabout.

Well I don't think they're roundabouts either. But the OP implies that such
things do exist somewhere in other countries, where the diameter is a mere
12' to 18', yet the roundabout ROW rule applies. That I've never seen.

[Floyd Rogers]

Post by Paul D. DeRocco

...
That one is NOT a roundabout either. 23rd Street has STOP Signs. Clinton
has the Right-of-way and does not have to yield or stop.

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
There are more further east, at 31st, 36th and 47th.

These are the same. They are just intersections with traffic calming
islands in the middle. Traffic entering a Roundabout always YIELDS (on
EVERY approach) to traffic in the roundabout.

Well I don't think they're roundabouts either. But the OP implies that
such things do exist somewhere in other countries, where the diameter is a
mere 12' to 18', yet the roundabout ROW rule applies. That I've never
seen.

Actually, they *DO* exist. There is one near the Wimbledon tennis site,
on the walk from the subway station to the site:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=london,+uk&sll=51.421262,-0.210543&sspn=0.040303,0.088406&ie=UTF8&ll=51.437955,-0.213037&spn=0.001259,0.002763&t=k&z=19

FloydR

[Paul S Wolf]

Post by Paul D. DeRocco

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
http://tinyurl.com/r4c2a9

That one is NOT a roundabout either. 23rd Street has STOP Signs. Clinton
has the Right-of-way and does not have to yield or stop.

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
There are more further east, at 31st, 36th and 47th.

These are the same. They are just intersections with traffic calming
islands in the middle. Traffic entering a Roundabout always YIELDS (on
EVERY approach) to traffic in the roundabout.

Well I don't think they're roundabouts either. But the OP implies that such
things do exist somewhere in other countries, where the diameter is a mere
12' to 18', yet the roundabout ROW rule applies. That I've never seen.

They do indeed exist, as a google search for mini-roundabout will give
many examples. The British, in particular, use them frequently. I
didn't provide links to images of British examples only because of their
left hand driving rules, since I didn't want to confuse the issues.

But here are some examples:

Loading Image...
Loading Image...
Loading Image...
Loading Image...
Loading Image...


My wife and I have driven quite a bit in Israel, where many roundabouts
are used at small local intersections and some not-so-small locations in
large cities, like Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. After about one or two days
of experience, they become second nature, and quite easy to navigate,
and they DO save a lot of time and frustration for drivers. They sure
beat multiple all-way stops in residential neighborhoods, like along
this road in Kfar Saba (Sderot Sheshet HaYamim):

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=kfar+saba+israel&ie=UTF8&ll=32.175313,34.897771&spn=0.00544,0.009173&t=h&z=17

Although I'm a professional traffic engineer, my wife isn't. You would
expect me to understand the rules and driving process as part of my
training and experience. Yet my wife understands the rules for
roundabouts just as much as I do, likes them, and finds them easy to use
as well.

[Arif Khokar]

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
One problem I see with really tiny roundabouts is that they feel too much
like regular intersections, yet they have the opposite right-of-way rule.
You're used to assuming you have the ROW if you're on the right,

I've always found that rule counterintuitive. For instance, if you're
driving straight and someone is waiting to make a right turn from a side
road to your right, do they have the right-of-way over you? A second
example is where you're driving on a highway and there's traffic
preparing to merge onto the highway on your right. Does merging traffic
have the right-of-way?

To be consistent, it would make sense to yield to traffic coming from
the left.

Post by Paul D. DeRocco
but the presence of a tiny island in the middle of the intersection changes
that, so you had better notice that you're not in a regular intersection.

Roundabouts have plenty of signage indicating what rules to follow when
you're approaching (that is yield before entering, one way only). Also,
the intersection geometry provides a circular path and the island will
have an "apron" that will allow larger vehicles to negotiate the
intersection.

[Paul D. DeRocco]

Post by Arif Khokar
I've always found that rule counterintuitive. For instance, if you're
driving straight and someone is waiting to make a right turn from a side
road to your right, do they have the right-of-way over you?

Yes, if you both have a stop sign and it's a tie.

Post by Arif Khokar
To be consistent, it would make sense to yield to traffic coming from
the left.

No, as I said, it only applies when all other things are equal.

Post by Arif Khokar
A second
example is where you're driving on a highway and there's traffic
preparing to merge onto the highway on your right. Does merging traffic
have the right-of-way?

Consider the basic case of two streets crossing at right angles with all-way
stop signs, and two cars arriving concurrently at right angles to each
other, both wanting to go straight. If the car on the left goes first, the
car on the right has to wait for that car to go all the way through the
intersection. If the car on the right goes first, as under current ROW
rules, the car on the left only has to wait for the other car to get a
little over half way through the intersection.

[Arif Khokar]

Post by Paul D. DeRocco

Post by Arif Khokar
I've always found that rule counterintuitive. For instance, if you're
driving straight and someone is waiting to make a right turn from a side
road to your right, do they have the right-of-way over you?

Yes, if you both have a stop sign and it's a tie.

Then we have one special case for yielding where in almost all other
cases you yield to vehicles coming from your left.

Post by Paul D. DeRocco

Post by Arif Khokar
To be consistent, it would make sense to yield to traffic coming from
the left.

No, as I said, it only applies when all other things are equal.

Why have this special case then?

Post by Paul D. DeRocco

Post by Arif Khokar
A second example is where you're driving on a highway and there's traffic
preparing to merge onto the highway on your right. Does merging traffic
have the right-of-way?

Consider the basic case of two streets crossing at right angles with all-way
stop signs, and two cars arriving concurrently at right angles to each
other, both wanting to go straight. If the car on the left goes first, the
car on the right has to wait for that car to go all the way through the
intersection. If the car on the right goes first, as under current ROW
rules, the car on the left only has to wait for the other car to get a
little over half way through the intersection.

I don't know about you, but I typically wait for cross traffic to clear
the intersection before proceeding. It's usually easier to see traffic
coming from your left rather than to your right (simply because of the
driver's position in the vehicle).

I simply don't see the need for having a special "yield to traffic on
the right" case for a 4-way stop. That, I believe, is the reason why
many--probably most--drivers aren't sure who has the right-of-way when
two vehicles approach a stop sign intersection at the same time.

[Paul D. DeRocco]

Post by Paul D. DeRocco

Post by Arif Khokar
I've always found that rule counterintuitive. For instance, if you're
driving straight and someone is waiting to make a right turn from a side
road to your right, do they have the right-of-way over you?

Yes, if you both have a stop sign and it's a tie.

Then we have one special case for yielding where in almost all other cases
you yield to vehicles coming from your left.

No, you don't. The standard right-of-way law is that the car on the right
has the right-of-way. Merging onto a highway, or into a roundabout, are the
special cases, and that's why they usually have a Yield sign.

Post by Paul D. DeRocco

Post by Arif Khokar
To be consistent, it would make sense to yield to traffic coming from
the left.

No, as I said, it only applies when all other things are equal.

Why have this special case then?

It's not a special case. If one road has a stop sign and the other doesn't,
then the car on the through road has the right-of-way, whether it's on the
right or on the left. If in a four-way stop, one car arrives before another,
it has the right-of-way, whether it's on the right or on the left.
Specifying right-of-way by the relative orientations of the cars is only
meaningful when the roads are equal and the cars are in a tie. Then, the
standard rule is the car on the right has the right-of-way.

I don't know about you, but I typically wait for cross traffic to clear
the intersection before proceeding. It's usually easier to see traffic
coming from your left rather than to your right (simply because of the
driver's position in the vehicle).

And I can usually sense when the other driver is someone like you, within a
half-second, and I simply proceed out of turn. Thanks!

[CAHighway99]

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

Menlo Park, within the greater SF Bay Area, has a neighborhood with
numerous roundabouts in them. Sure beats having to stop all of the
time at stop-signs.

[Mike T.]

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. Just about all of the examples
provided were great examples of "little" roundabouts, but did not fit
the official definition of a mini-roundabout. But it gave a good
overview of practices for little roundabouts in the USA, which is
exactly what I was looking for :)

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

[Rothman]

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

What about the intersection of Krumkill Rd. and Schoolhouse Rd. in the
northwest corner of Bethlehem, NY? Center island may be too wide,
though.

Also, the one at the entrance to the outlet store complex at the US 20/
Lee, MA exit off the Massachusetts turnpike...I believe there's a tiny
one there.

[Paul S Wolf]

Post by Rothman

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

What about the intersection of Krumkill Rd. and Schoolhouse Rd. in the
northwest corner of Bethlehem, NY? Center island may be too wide,
though.

That one doesn't show in either the google or yahoo maps satellite images.

Post by Rothman
Also, the one at the entrance to the outlet store complex at the US 20/
Lee, MA exit off the Massachusetts turnpike...I believe there's a tiny
one there.

I was there a number of times last summer. That's just a small
traditional traffic circle, not a roundabout. No "splitter islands", no
Yield signs, no diverting of the approach lanes (i.e. the approaches
meet the circle at right angles). As I recall, they have Stop signs on
the East & West approaches and the South leg is one-way out. I believe
the entrance road (North leg) has a Stop sign, too, but I can't be sure
until I get back there in a couple of weeks.

Compare that one:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&sll=42.664474,-73.847756&sspn=0.001181,0.002293&ie=UTF8&ll=42.295759,-73.233222&spn=0.002377,0.004587&t=k&z=18&iwloc=A
to this one in Cleveland, OH:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&sll=42.66449,-73.847947&sspn=0.009451,0.018346&ie=UTF8&ll=41.466331,-81.690865&spn=0.002408,0.004587&t=k&z=18&iwloc=A

The second one is obviously bigger with two lane approaches, but note
the islands, and the way the approaches divert from straight ahead to
enter the roundabout basically tangent to the circle in each case,
rather than at a right angle.

[Tim Farthing]

Post by Rothman

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

What about the intersection of Krumkill Rd. and Schoolhouse Rd. in the
northwest corner of Bethlehem, NY? Center island may be too wide,
though.
Also, the one at the entrance to the outlet store complex at the US 20/
Lee, MA exit off the Massachusetts turnpike...I believe there's a tiny
one there.

Add a handful in Nashua NH, and one in the center of Dublin, NH.
There has been one in the center of Goshen, CT for as long as I can remember.

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.756147,-71.516651&spn=0.001501,0.00239&t=h&z=19
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.73882,-71.458415&spn=0.001501,0.00239&t=h&z=19

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.905956,-72.060662&spn=0.005988,0.009559&z=17

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=41.832064,-73.225207&spn=0.001523,0.00239&t=h&z=19

[Paul S Wolf]

Post by Tim Farthing

Post by Rothman

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

What about the intersection of Krumkill Rd. and Schoolhouse Rd. in the
northwest corner of Bethlehem, NY? Center island may be too wide,
though.
Also, the one at the entrance to the outlet store complex at the US 20/
Lee, MA exit off the Massachusetts turnpike...I believe there's a tiny
one there.

Add a handful in Nashua NH, and one in the center of Dublin, NH.
There has been one in the center of Goshen, CT for as long as I can remember.
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.756147,-71.516651&spn=0.001501,0.00239&t=h&z=19
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.73882,-71.458415&spn=0.001501,0.00239&t=h&z=19
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.905956,-72.060662&spn=0.005988,0.009559&z=17
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=41.832064,-73.225207&spn=0.001523,0.00239&t=h&z=19

As I said earlier, the third one (Krumkill & Schoolhouse) doesn't show
well in either google maps or yahoo maps and doesn't show an island in
google earth. So I can't comment on it, other than to say that given
the basic geometry, it would appear to be a good candidate for a
roundabout. If it's been rebuilt I'd guess NYSDOT did design it as a
modern roundabout, as I know they encourage their use. Although I'll be
driving through Albany on I-90 on June 1st, I probably won't have time
to take a side trip, unfortunately. That would be after 8 hours of a 9
hour trip. But it's not very far off the route, so I'll see how I feel
at that point, and how early a start I get.

The others do appear to be roundabouts.

See my other message about the outlet mall at Lee, which is NOT a
roundabout.

[Rothman]

Post by Paul S Wolf

Post by Tim Farthing

Post by Rothman

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

What about the intersection of Krumkill Rd. and Schoolhouse Rd. in the
northwest corner of Bethlehem, NY?  Center island may be too wide,
though.
Also, the one at the entrance to the outlet store complex at the US 20/
Lee, MA exit off the Massachusetts turnpike...I believe there's a tiny
one there.

Add a handful in Nashua NH, and one in the center of Dublin, NH.
There has been one in the center of Goshen, CT for as long as I can remember.
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.756147,-71.516651&spn=0.001501,...
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.73882,-71.458415&spn=0.001501,0...
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.905956,-72.060662&spn=0.005988,...
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=41.832064,-73.225207&spn=0.001523,...

As I said earlier, the third one (Krumkill & Schoolhouse) doesn't show
well in either google maps or yahoo maps and doesn't show an island in
google earth.  So I can't comment on it, other than to say that given
the basic geometry, it would appear to be a good candidate for a
roundabout.  If it's been rebuilt I'd guess NYSDOT did design it as a
modern roundabout, as I know they encourage their use.  Although I'll be
driving through Albany on I-90 on June 1st, I probably won't have time
to take a side trip, unfortunately.  That would be after 8 hours of a 9
hour trip.  But it's not very far off the route, so I'll see how I feel
at that point, and how early a start I get.
The others do appear to be roundabouts.
See my other message about the outlet mall at Lee, which is NOT a
roundabout.
--
Fellow, Institute of Transportation Engineers

It's a modern roundabout, built within the past year or so (Krumkill/
Schoolhouse). I believe Google street view still shows the area under
construction.

[Paul S Wolf]

Post by Rothman

Post by Paul S Wolf

Post by Tim Farthing

Post by Rothman

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

What about the intersection of Krumkill Rd. and Schoolhouse Rd. in the
northwest corner of Bethlehem, NY? Center island may be too wide,
though.
Also, the one at the entrance to the outlet store complex at the US 20/
Lee, MA exit off the Massachusetts turnpike...I believe there's a tiny
one there.

Add a handful in Nashua NH, and one in the center of Dublin, NH.
There has been one in the center of Goshen, CT for as long as I can remember.
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.756147,-71.516651&spn=0.001501,...
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.73882,-71.458415&spn=0.001501,0...
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.905956,-72.060662&spn=0.005988,...
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=41.832064,-73.225207&spn=0.001523,...

As I said earlier, the third one (Krumkill & Schoolhouse) doesn't show
well in either google maps or yahoo maps and doesn't show an island in
google earth. So I can't comment on it, other than to say that given
the basic geometry, it would appear to be a good candidate for a
roundabout. If it's been rebuilt I'd guess NYSDOT did design it as a
modern roundabout, as I know they encourage their use. Although I'll be
driving through Albany on I-90 on June 1st, I probably won't have time
to take a side trip, unfortunately. That would be after 8 hours of a 9
hour trip. But it's not very far off the route, so I'll see how I feel
at that point, and how early a start I get.
The others do appear to be roundabouts.
See my other message about the outlet mall at Lee, which is NOT a
roundabout.
--
Fellow, Institute of Transportation Engineers

It's a modern roundabout, built within the past year or so (Krumkill/
Schoolhouse). I believe Google street view still shows the area under
construction.

That's what I assumed. As I said, I may swing by it on June 1st, if I'm
not running too late or too tired.

[Paul S Wolf]

Post by Paul S Wolf

Post by Rothman

Post by Paul S Wolf

Post by Tim Farthing

Post by Rothman

Post by Mike Tantillo
Anyone know of any of these here in this country?
Center island is 12 to 18 feet in diameter (approx).
If so, where are they?

What about the intersection of Krumkill Rd. and Schoolhouse Rd. in the
northwest corner of Bethlehem, NY? Center island may be too wide,
though.
Also, the one at the entrance to the outlet store complex at the US 20/
Lee, MA exit off the Massachusetts turnpike...I believe there's a tiny
one there.

Add a handful in Nashua NH, and one in the center of Dublin, NH.
There has been one in the center of Goshen, CT for as long as I can remember.
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.756147,-71.516651&spn=0.001501,...
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.73882,-71.458415&spn=0.001501,0...
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=42.905956,-72.060662&spn=0.005988,...
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=41.832064,-73.225207&spn=0.001523,...

As I said earlier, the third one (Krumkill & Schoolhouse) doesn't show
well in either google maps or yahoo maps and doesn't show an island in
google earth. So I can't comment on it, other than to say that given
the basic geometry, it would appear to be a good candidate for a
roundabout. If it's been rebuilt I'd guess NYSDOT did design it as a
modern roundabout, as I know they encourage their use. Although I'll be
driving through Albany on I-90 on June 1st, I probably won't have time
to take a side trip, unfortunately. That would be after 8 hours of a 9
hour trip. But it's not very far off the route, so I'll see how I feel
at that point, and how early a start I get.
The others do appear to be roundabouts.
See my other message about the outlet mall at Lee, which is NOT a
roundabout.
--
Fellow, Institute of Transportation Engineers

It's a modern roundabout, built within the past year or so (Krumkill/
Schoolhouse). I believe Google street view still shows the area under
construction.

That's what I assumed. As I said, I may swing by it on June 1st, if I'm
not running too late or too tired.

I did get a chance to drive through Schoolhouse & Krumkill quickly
yesterday around 6 pm. It is indeed a modern roundabout, and although I
went through without stopping to look around, it appeared well designed
and constructed, and operated as it should. It is NOT a MINI-Roundabout.

I came south on Schoolhouse, slowed but did not need to stop to enter,
and exited eastbound, then found a nearby gas station, filled up, and
finished my trip by getting back on I-90 to the Taconic.